Forum : Technical Preview

Get all your questions answered about our latest Photosynth Technical Preview.


Topic: page layout

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myroom468600 (5 months ago)
round is not ok, please be consistent, just make some windows 8 style squares and let us manually chose backgrounds or themes don't just throw a semytransparent layout over our own stupid photos, it's distracting and not at all visually pleasing, and also it would be nice and practical to make a mode in which you let the user drop in hundreds of pictures and let them set the number of columns and rows so that we can easily browse through our pictures and reference images without "walking forward" or "rotating around or in a room" or whatever.. just pan and zoom ... please... the creative world desperatly needs this..
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
ok i'll even help out with the layout and overall design.. just hit me up l3bowsky@gmail.com
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
If all you want is to use Seadragon to browse your photos, then you can simply download the Photosynth desktop application here: http://photosynth.net/create.aspx

1: Sign into the application with your Microsoft account.
2: Drag all the photos you wish to put into a single album into the synther window.
3: Provide a name for the album.
4: Click the [Synth] button and wait for the upload to finish.

When you view it online, just select 2D View and you'll be able to pan and zoom through all your photos in 2D.

What you're asking for is plain Seadragon and although Photosynth uses Seadragon to stream images, Photosynth's purpose is to capture a place or an object in 3D using photography and explore those photos spatially.

You would be better off asking the OneDrive team to use Seadragon on their site or hiring a developer friend to create a OneDrive app which uses a Silverlight Deep Zoom control or PivotViewer control to browse your content.
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
Regarding setting our own background on our profiles, synths are able to be embedded just like other web media, so if you want a page with a custom background image and your synths featured on it, there is nothing to stop you from making your own webpage where you embed your synths, such as a WordPress, Tumblr, or Blogger blog with a custom theme or your own custom site. For that matter, you can access your synths' thumbnails and display the full squares there if you wish.

Photosynth has chosen circles as their design theme and uses it for everything from their new logo to the thumbnail shape to the icons. 
The universe is chock full of circular and spherical things, so there's nothing invalid about using circles as a design element.

I, for one, am glad that someone at Microsoft is not just slapping colored squares on a screen, thinking that this qualifies as good design.
The Zune team understood that not everything needed to be enclosed in a rectangle.
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
Here are links to the Deep Zoom and Pivot Viewer Silverlight controls: 
http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight/deep-zoom/
http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight/pivotviewer/

And here is a link to download the old Pivot desktop application: 
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/dd4a479f-92d6-496f-867d-666c87fbaada/default.aspx
(Note that the built in demo collections are offline now.)

Also note that there is an open source clone of Seadragon under active development on GitHub which could be used by a developer to help you realize the sort of interface you're expressing a desire for. http://openseadragon.github.io/
You can see a little demo of their multi-image viewing capabilities here: http://openseadragon.github.io/examples/tilesource-collection/
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
If you'd like to get an idea of what I mean by browsing unrelated photos in a Photosynth 1 synth, then try these Lumia 1020 test shots: 
In Silverlight: http://photosynth.net/view.aspx?cid=bc0b1657-1f0d-400e-bfef-1119825a9d00&m=true&i=0:54:1&t=False

In Direct3D http://photosynth.net/d3d/photosynth.aspx?cid=bc0b1657-1f0d-400e-bfef-1119825a9d00&m=true
(requires Photosynth desktop application to be installed and IE 10 or below)

It's perfectly possible to create a Seadragon app that will read the image collection from a Photosynth 1 synth, as this now defunct iPhone app demonstrates: 
http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/LarryLarsen/First-Look-Seadragon-Mobile
:-)
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
yea did you ever use deep zoom or pivot viewer on a windows 8 tablet? ... it sux, we don't even yet have an app on windows 8 for storing our collections and quickly viewing them or uploading them on the fly... 

hell we don't even have an app for viewing pictures in a decent and efficient way.... please.. just .. do something to make our lives easier :( i tried everything nate.. 

that's why i say stuff .. not speaking out my ass here.... 

for some reason seadragon and deep zoom composer use the same tech .. 

AND YET THERE IS NOT " UPLOAD TO SEADRAGON "  option in deep zoom composer -.-, i had to actually manually arrange every single image in a collection of 1k images in photoshop and use a stupid plugin that would crash most of the time because it isn't optimized to use larger then 4gigs files and you need a #%!@load of ddr to make it work...
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
all i want.. is to just drag and drop images into a collection adding them or creating a new one.. and just pan and zoom through them with my windows 8 tablet, is that so much to ask in 2014?   seadragon was presented in 2006 and i have been waiting for a practical way to use that service forever... still nothing... just a lot of little projects like deep zoom and photosynth that are "pretty"  by microsoft's standards i guess... 

but that offer no real user friendly interactivity... and im not sayng i want it made for idiots.. i just want not to hit my head on a wall of buttons and checkmarks every time i want to do something...  just take that as a suggestion for future app / service development... altho im pretty sure no real decisionmaker is gonna read this thread because... pff f** what people want .. right?    

ps. whoever designed the green button in the lower left that posts your comment on this site is an idiot XD
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
@MyRoom, you and I have common ground in that I also wanted Seadragon to be released as a standalone application.
Also, yes, I share your disappointment that Live Labs where the Seadragon team lived was shut down in late 2010, just before Windows Phone launched.
I would have loved to have the Live Labs crew making Windows Phone and Windows 8 apps.

The reality is that all images have to be completely converted to a multi-resolution tiled format to view in Seadragon, which means either: 
1) reformatting your entire image collection (making them unusable in most other image editors and viewers) or 
2) storing a set of thumbnails for each original image that is appoximately 1.3 times the file size of the original image (for a cumulative file size of 2.3 times what any given JPG you have currently is).
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
i have no problem with making my images unusable in other editing software .. but they could also fix that... the images could get resized into different resolutions like deep zoom composer does when you save out files, and also store the full image somewhere in the server with a hiperlink to a small download button near your thumbnail, i think that's a very elegant sollution, another elegant solution would be the way you upload your images... right now seadragon for desktop is a mess.. you gotta open it and then click add images or whatever.. why not skip that step and just be able to drag and drop the images into a website pannel and let the server do all the work... and another feature would be nice to have.. 

for the administrator of a collection when he / she is logged in , to be able to delete and add images to the collection with small buttons near the thumbnails, that you can see only when you sellect your thumbnails ... theres so many ways to fix this...
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
I will agree that there is a gaping hole in the Windows Phone and Windows 8 app stores as far as apps which would view Deep Zoom Collections.

Strictly speaking Seadragon is the original technology, originally written in C++ and OpenGL and later ported to C++ and DirectX (as used here on this site in the original Direct3D Photosynth viewer). It uses your computer's GPU and operates in 3D.

Deep Zoom is the CPU-only watered down version of Seadragon that was built into Silverlight and written in C# but since Silverlight 2 - 4 didn't have access to the GPU, it was much slower and only operated with any decent performance in 2D.

The point is kind of moot now, since Microsoft killed Silverlight just as Silverlight 5 released with GPU support and doesn't support Silverlight in IE on Windows RT, Windows Phone, XBOX 360/ONE etc. nor are they willing to port a real Seadragon control to WinRT, Windows Phone, WebGL, etc. for developers to use in their own apps.
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
i wish i had the time to learn some programming languages to do all this myself....
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
i have actually been searching for a good programmer to hire so he can make some of my own app designs but haven't had the time to really look into that unfortunately
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
I agree that it's possible to store both the original image and the Deep Zoom Image tile pyramid together. 
I'm only pointing out that it very quickly eats up storage, whether that's on the server or your tablet/laptop/desktop.

What would perhaps be even more elegant is to simply have a script on the server which will take the tiles from the original resolution and simply piece them back together again as Henri Astre's PhotosynthToolkit does on your own computer when downloading a synth's data.

That way, the server only has to store the Deep Zoom Image and can put the pieces back together only for images which people choose to download and can then choose between caching that or discarding it and regenerating it if necessary - whichever is more efficient. The only downside would be repeated compression.
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
but yea.. just for fun.... try using photosynth to view a collection of images in 2d mode.... on a capacitive multitouch monitor or windows tablet
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
yes you're right that's a more elegant solution but i was thinking of an easier way regardless of the space it requires... 

in other words, making the programmer's life easier because from my experience with programmers, they don't really want to put in the work to make everything neat, they mostly just wanna " get it over with" and go home and slack all day, play wow, watch tv series, or waste they're lives in various other ways :))
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
also why r u here right now? reading up forums and responding to people?
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
As to your criticism of how images are uploaded to Photosynth.net, the choice to do so through a local client app was very intentional on the Photosynth team's part for Photosynth 1 in 2008 because they were also doing all the computer vision computation (which is very compute intensive) on your local machine.

You can listen to them explain their reasoning on that in these older videos on Channel 9.
http://channel9.msdn.com/blogs/nicfill/shutterspeed-ep04-the-photosynth-team
http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Dan/Drew-Steedly-and-Joshua-Podolak-on-Photosynth
http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Dan/Blaise-Aguera-y-Arcas-The-technology-behind-Photosynth

On the other hand, in Photosynth 2 on the new preview site you do, in fact, just drag the photos into the browser window and it uploads using HTML5's capabilities, however Photosynth 2 does not offer 2D view.
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
yea i know.. tha'ts why i was picky about it.. because they can clearly do it, just not for the right service...which .. in my opinion is just plain stupid .. and i still don't get why they don't offer a 2d view... 

would it be so hard to just sellect a "2d wall viewing style"  when you make a collection in photosynth 2?  they already have 3 options you can choose from.. why not add another one... 

coming back to my theory of lazy programmers..
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
As far as Deep Zoom Composer, when you want to be able to put in many images and view them as separate images in the final output (be able to resort them, etc.) you would need to export them as a Deep Zoom Collection, rather than a single Deep Zoom Image for use with Seadragon AJAX. 

(Seadragon AJAX is a third version of Seadragon which is written in only Javascript and even worse than Deep Zoom because it only handles a single Deep Zoom Image and Javascript's speed is somewhat lacking and offers no GPU utilization.)

What you are meant to do with the output of Deep Zoom Composer is to wrap it into an app or just upload it to your own web server and put up a web page with the viewer embedded.
(If you don't have your own web server, Dropbox is probably the only free hosting that will allow you to upload an entire folder of files without messing with them and making them unusable.)
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
dude i know what deep zoom composer is.. i used it i played with it you can use it to make your own website collections or whatever... 

and it sux that it doesn't also have the option to output a single huge image to be able to upload to  photosynth 1... that would be convenient because i'd rather compose collections in deep zoom composer then photoshop.. 

i found a software that handles large collections called photo fusion or something like that but it costs like 200 $ -.-... which... is just great...
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
No, I understood you earlier when you said you'd used Deep Zoom Composer. That's why I even mentioned it. 
I was just trying to help you understand that it was a tool for app developers who were going to use a Silverlight Deep Zoom control in their Silverlight app.

I, too, would like to see 2D view come back to Photosynth 2 and it's been mentioned in three previous discussions here, 
first asked about by myself, 
second, suggested as a solution for understanding which images didn't match each other by Photosynth's manager, 
and third, a note back from the Photosynth team that it would be more work to bring back than anticipated and that although they're still interested other things take priority.

::

It's not a matter of lazy programmers. I think that it's a matter of functionality design. 
You want Seadragon and because Photosynth uses (various incarnations of) it you seem to want them to discard everything that makes them Photosynth + give you only Seadragon.
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
If you're serious about wanting to make your own Windows 8 app that can browse Deep Zoom Collections and you want some information to give your developer (or for yourself, if you do make time to learn to code on your own), here are some links: 

For writing your own Seadragon viewer, you can probably learn quite a bit from looking at: 
1) Seadragon AJAX source code: http://bit.ly/seajaxos
2) OpenSeadragon source code (see above)
3) Ben Vanik's series of blog posts with tips for ZUI authors:
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/13863940977
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/13978156533
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/13883153608
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/13931208153
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/13941606764
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14079110659
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14127398599
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14176690650
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14222411302
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14225281899
http://benvanik.tumblr.com/post/14027494017
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
or remake a better smarter seadragon, but that's not gonna happen because they probably already consider seadragon abandoneware
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
thx
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
Gary Flake's answer on Quora may also be of interest to you or your coder: http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-key-algorithms-that-enable-Microsofts-Seadragon

For code that converts images to tile pyramids, Ian Gilman has put together a good list at http://openseadragon.github.io/examples/creating-zooming-images/

Henri Astre's code that downloads and reads deep zoom images and pieces them back together should also prove informative: https://github.com/dddExperiments/PhotoSynthToolkit

::

If you want to teach yourself to code, here are some resources: 
Watch this entire free course. http://lynda.com/JavaScript-tutorials/Foundations-of-Programming-Fundamentals/83603-2.html
http://www.codecademy.com/learn
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/beginner
https://www.khanacademy.org/cs
http://code.org/learn/beyond
NateLawrence (5 months ago)
I meant to throw this in the list of learning coding links: http://pluralsight.com/kids
I also meant to list this under code useful for converting images to zoomable images on your own server: https://github.com/zoomhub/zoomhub

I don't mean to give you information overload but, for several years now, I've meant to get into coding and not done too much about it, but every day this week has had some reminder to me that I need to put in the work so that I can put together my own ideas instead of waiting for others to be convinced of what I think would be useful. 

Not knowing how to code in this day and age is like being illiterate in past centuries, so this list is as much for me as for you.

If you do ever get an app like you want up and running, definitely let me know.
myroom468600 (5 months ago)
thank you, well i do know basic programming but not very advanced stuff because i mostly focused on industrial design and concept art and architecture for the most part, and that's also an endless pool of info you need to absorb to be good in that domain
@Photosynth Team.

You seem to have here a very serious, very frustrated, very critical user.

As you know my frustrations and worries are in other areas, but there sure is common ground in frustration about the speed of moving forward. This is related to collaborating with other teams within Microsoft.

Satya has said that he will get all obstacles of innovation out of the way. Please let him know where to use his axe for you, i.e. bang the heads together.

Mark his words about mobile and cloud focus too, please.
DontPanic (5 months ago)
The Pivot project was really what you need but its dead too. It could handle 10,000 photos. With all kinds of great features. But.... Check out www.comesagj.com under gallery. 

I also agree to no options for 2d photos, I have 100,000 if not.millions of photos just sitting around I cant manage and are useless. 

id like to upload them all the SkyDrive and have photosynth, pivot and blink scan them all, connect in 3d what it can, then sort, group and clean up the rest, map on Bing, scan for faces and tag... 

its 2014 and we can't even deal with basic photo collections. My collection kills search indexers and any organized apps crash or become too unstable to use on a duel zeon with 12gb ram. Why?
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