Share tips for making and sharing amazing panoramas from your phone.
Really cool app for your Mobile, hope to see it soon in the Marketplace of Microsoft Windows Phone 7.
Keep me posted
Kind regards James
The Windows Phone 7 version of the mobile panorama app will have to come out after the 'Mango' update to the Windows Phone 7 operating system comes out in the last few months of 2011.
Here's a comment I made on Blaise's weblog with more details in the second half (start reading at "@Jonny") on why I say that this will be a 'Mango' app: http://styleisviolence.com/photosynth-app/#comment-340
Epic fail on microsofts part in my opinion, being a windows phone 7 user it totally baffles me that the boys in redmond would release this killer app for an apple product first, thanks for rewarding your diehard fans, not!
The Citrus Lens, the Photosynth team is working on the Windows Phone 7 version of the app.
The simple reality is that the Windows Phone 7 team did not yet have the features in the Windows Phone app development tools (like access to the camera and motion sensors) that the Photosynth team needed in order to make their pano stitcher work in the way that it does. The tools for Windows Phone 7 developers to start creating 'Mango' apps will come out sometime this month (May 2011) and then we users will be able to use whatever Mango apps have been finished when the Mango update to the WP7 operating system is sent out toward the end of 2011.
"I’m sure over the coming days and weeks we’ll be answering, over and over, the “why didn’t this ship first on Microsoft’s own phone” question. Our approach to the design of the Photosynth app hopefully provides some evidence that we very much think of Windows Phone 7 as brethren and inspiration, not to mention proof that Microsoft can make beautiful things. ...
If we could have shipped first on these devices, we would have. But the level of camera and low-level algorithmic hacking needed to make Photosynth work meant that, if we wanted to get this out as quickly as possible (and we surely did) we needed to do so on a platform that provided the necessary low-level device access. Windows Phone 7 doesn’t yet allow this for apps. It will soon. It’s worth keeping in mind that the first several generations of iPhone device and OS wouldn’t have allowed us to build this app either. ...
At Bing we’re always interested in reaching as many people as possible, which means we’ll always develop for multiple platforms. But over time, we’ll be doing more and more of our early innovation on the Windows Phone."
The last three paragraphs are quoted from Blaise's weblog. You can read the full entry here: http://styleisviolence.com/photosynth-app/
My bad, I thought this was a microsoft product, I did not realize microsoft did not have all the developers tools available to you guys.
Hii i think that allmost all the tools are prvided by the microsoft. Thanks from Android Mobile Application Development India
Team, KryptonSoft, India
Hey guys guess what came out today?
So where is Photosynth for Windows Phone 7.5????
Is is on Bing Maps, Hank?
Mango is being rolled out now. How long do we have to wait until your app gets released for WP7.5? I mean the mango dev. tools have been around for quite a while now.
Thomas, the Windows Phone version of the mobile pano app wouldn't be available from Bing Maps...
When it is released, it will appear on the Windows Phone Marketplace: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/search?q=Photosynth
So anyone has the official word on when WP7 Mango users can enjoy Photosynth on their phones?
I'm also waiting since the release of the iPhoneapp for Photosynth on WP7... Now that Mango is offically out, it would be great to hear some news :)
I have been waiting for a long time for Photosynth on WP7, now I think I have another good reason to swith from Trophy to iPhone 4S :)
I have asked for information on the Windows Phone app countless times on twitter and never got a single reply. I as many wish to know the progress of the app as your team announced months ago that until Mango is released (due to limited API's) there will not be an app until then. 7.5 Mango is now released and still no news. Your Microsoft maybe a different devision but a part of the corporation. Can you please show some support, respect and customer service to those who love your work and spend a lot of money on your research/products/eco system.
Where is Photosynth for Mango??????? It's been out for weeks now but yet no Photosynth!
Guys and girls, try to relax.
No one promised that the Windows Phone version of the Photosynth mobile app would come out on the same day as the Windows Phone Mango update. Yes, Mango's capabilities are necessary for us to get the app, and yes I share your disappointment that it isn't ready yet.
I would just say that the Photosynth team has said repeatedly that the Windows Phone app is their next priority. When it's ready, they'll put it out. Until that time comes, no amount of poor attitude on our parts will make the waiting any more pleasant. If you're cool, you'll understand.
To be perfectly honest, even the iPhone app has a lot of growing up to do before it'll be worthy of the Photosynth name. (It doesn't even open photosynths yet - only panoramas. Beyond all that, the capability to link multiple panoramas together isn't available yet, nor is support for shooting spin movies.) I would be happy if I could at least get what iPhone users can use, but if the first version of the Windows Phone version of the app is identical to the current iOS app, just remember that it's going to take a number of updates before we really have a true Photosynth experience on our phones.
The HTML5 panorama viewer which currently only works in Mobile Safari also needs to be updated for IE9 mobile.
For work that still has to be done on even the Mobile Safari HTML viewer, see this discussion: http://photosynth.net/discussion.aspx?cat=c76bfe71-d042-4aec-b49b-b48b67d7be96&dis=23657389-3f14-4585-aac7-1eb8d392b017
For the latest mentions of the Windows Phone version of the app that I know of, please see this related discussion:
I think it's absolutely disgusting that MS chose to release Photosynth for iOS, a platform from Apple, their main competitor and the dominant player in the mobile market, a company that has in past constantly thrown mud at MS and others.
So why is MS rewarding Apple and their users? What about us loyal MS fans who have stood by you through ups and downs. The ones who defend you against all the attacks you see in the press?
Are you really saying that we should move to iOS if we want to use your services?
Digger1985, Photosynth is a part of Bing and Bing competes against Google.
Google wants to be used by people on every operating system and spends the money and time to make that happen. Therefore for Bing to be a serious competitor to Google, they need to make themselves available to every platform as a first-class experience.
Photosynth announced that they were coming to Windows Phone after iOS on the day that the iPhone app came out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BbuPPOVXQo&t=2m
The reason that they waited to make the Windows Phone app was because the first version of Windows Phone 7 did not give developers access to the camera, which the Photosynth team needed. http://bit.ly/bapia
Those camera functions are now available since the 7.5 update is out and the Photosynth team will release their app for Windows Phone when it is running as well as the iPhone app does.
Let's look at Photosynth users on iOS and then let's look at Bing users. You will probably find there is hardly any overlap. You will also find that hardly any Apple fan will switch over to Bing just because of photosynth. Most people don't even know that Photosynth is a part of Bing so I don't see how you can expect to increase Bing share just by releasing photosynth on other platforms.
Now you claim Photosynth is part of Bing but that they didn't have the tools to write the app before Mango.
How is this possible? Was the Bing app in WP7 written in Silverlight? I doubt it, since it had fast app switching/native performance since the start. Which means the Bing team definitely has access to the native SDK. Probably the SDK given to the OEMS like LG who had already made augmented reality apps for their phones from the start.
So why the wait for the mango? Why are you waiting to write the app in managed code when the Bing team has access to the native sdk. Shocking
I don't believe the whole "Therefore for Bing to be a serious competitor to Google, they need to make themselves available to every platform as a first-class experience." because if this was true, MS would have released the app on Android first because it has the most reach and coverage.
You say, "You will probably find there is hardly any overlap."
Answer: This is just speculation. Ask Bing themselves what overlap there is.
You say, "Most people don't even know that Photosynth is a part of Bing so I don't see how you can expect to increase Bing share just by releasing photosynth on other platforms."
Answer: When people upload their panoramas to Bing Maps or the Photosynth website from the app, they are making Bing Maps stronger. Quite a few of the video reviews of the iPhone app I've seen on YouTube point out that you can upload your panos to Bing Maps.
As far as your incredulity that the Photosynth/Bing Mobile team didn't have low level access to the camera, that's exactly what Blaise wrote in his blog. If you don't believe him, that's your problem.
As to your last point that if Bing really cares about reach, they'd release a Photosynth app for Android next, doesn't this implicitly answer your initial demands that they support Microsoft customers before others? You can't have it both ways.
Since I wasn't familiar with LG's 'augmented reality' apps for Windows Phone, I ran a search and this was the first thing to come up:
If that is all that you're talking about, that doesn't require any low-level system access. They're just getting the video feed and using Windows Phone's magnetometer (compass) and GPS to float geotagged data around the screen, but there's no computer vision happening there like what is involved in Photosynth's viewfinder or Occipital's 360 app.
1) I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of the Bing team when they say they wanted reach and released for iOS first. If they truly wanted reach they would have released Android first.
2) Bing CLEARLY has low level access to WP7 since the Bing app in WP7 is not written in what 3rd party devs are forced to use. Unless you are suggesting that the Bing app is infact written by the WP7 team itself? I am not sure why the Bing team is so gung ho on going with the managed code way when they could go the native way and reuse a lot of code they have used in their iOS version.
As for the LG app, I was just showing that the tools ARE and ALWAYS have been there if you wanted to go the native way. The Bing team waited for mango because it brought the Motion API, and video stream which in fact you already had access to with the OEM SDK.
Re:1) I think you are taking two different statements about two different things and trying to make them cancel each other out.
If I can believe what has been said publicly by Photosynth team members, it is merely a matter of not having a huge team to put on this. Here is what Tony Ernst said, five months ago about Android:
"Hey everyone, just wanted to give you all a heads up. We're hard at work on an update to the iPhone App, a WP7 version is next. We can see the value of an Android version, but our team is only large enough to work on one platform at a time."
And earlier Sam Choi argued in favor of Android for reach before Windows Phone: http://styleisviolence.com/photosynth-app/#comment-345
Here is Blaise's reply to him: http://styleisviolence.com/photosynth-app/#comment-346
Re:2) + 3) I'm really not here to argue with you.
We're both looking forward to the Windows Phone app coming out as soon as possible. They said that they would have released it on Windows Phone first if it had been possible at the time, but it wasn't. Now it is. It's just a matter of time. You asked them to prioritize Windows Phone users ahead of other mobile platform users and now that Windows Phone is capable, they are prioritizing us above Android.
Is it difficult to be patient? No.
Does Photosynth fans fighting each other over something that will be irrelevant soon solve anything or make anything better? No. No amount of bickering on our part will make the app come out any faster.
Here is what an Apple user thinks
"Wow, that is... interesting. I'm staggered that they'd release it on iOS before WP7. This just shows how broken MS is, IMO."
So there you go, instead of convincing Apple fans to use MS, it actually just makes them believe that MS is broken. Do you really think Bing will gain market share by targeting Apple fans? Leopards don't change their spots.
On the other hand there are tons of people without a smartphone. Something like photosynth would be an amazing exclusive to have on WP7 to sell it. Bing is the default and best integrated search experience on WP7. Everyone new WP7 user is a new Bing user. Think about it.
Look, I've followed Photosynth since before the Windows app came out. I've gone through over three years of Mac users being angry that what they perceive as a website doesn't work on a Mac (even though technically the computation of the synth or pano is done via the app on Windows, rather than the Photosynth servers). The point is, there were a lot of Mac users out there that were impressed and wanted to participate, but were turned away. Let me say it again. Apple users wanted to contribute photography to a service of Bing Maps, but weren't able to because of their operating system.
Do you honestly think that the competition (Google Maps) treats users this way? Not a chance. They'll do whatever it takes to tale your information from any operating system.
By neglecting to port Photosynth to the Mac, exactly how many Apple users have switched to Windows for it? Based on the conversations I have with people, not very many. A few will install Windows in Boot Camp, Parallels, Fusion, or the like, but most will just be offended and give up on the idea.
In reply to the comment on reddit: do I really need to list all the Apple users who have been (unreasonably) shocked that the company who made the app that they love on their iPhone is Microsoft? They make for good quotes too.
Honestly, my hope is that the Photosynth app for Windows Phone is out before 2012. If that turns out to be the case, then we can say that the iPhone and Windows Phone versions came out the same year. Yes the iPhone version came a little earlier, but it's not too a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Once both apps are out, I definitely expect them to be updated in parallel, though.
Steve Jobs said that he didn't want to see Android users happy, that's why they never ported iTunes to Android even though it would have increased their reach further and made more money.
MS should follow the same philosophy. Reward the users of their platform and punish people who don't use their platform. What's the point of rewarding people for using Apple? That's like Burger Kind giving McDonalds vouchers.
I understand your argument. It just happens to be wrong. Microsoft ought to be making software for all operating systems and consistently outperforming their competitors. Of course they should be making their products for their own platform too, but when an Apple user opens a Microsoft application, they should think, "Wow! This is amazing! Everyone told me that Microsoft sucked, but this rocks!". That is exactly what does happen with the Photosynth mobile pano app. That is what should happen with Skype, if Microsoft is wise, and they ought to take better care of their Office for Mac and Windows Live Messenger products as well as they don't currently compare favorably to the Windows versions of those apps.
I also think that Zune is short sighted to not offer a Zune app for iPhone and I believe that Apple is foolish to not have an iTunes app for Windows Phone.
Apple didn't have any problem making iTunes for Windows to steal users away. Neither should Microsoft.
If MS really cares about iOS users, why not switching from WP7 to iOS?
@suhongwei, you cannot judge the intentions of Microsoft as a whole based on the actions of a single team under Microsoft's roofs.
That said, if it is the Photosynth team which is making you question things, they do care about Windows Phone users. I have collected places where they have stated this at this link: http://bit.ly/synthywinphone
They are working on the Windows Phone version of their mobile panorama app even as the Photosynth community attacks them. I find this quite saddening. They have stated many times that they would create a Windows Phone version of the app after Windows Phone Mango put the necessary tools at their disposal and that is precisely what they are hard at work on.
Please be aware that many of the Photosynth team members also have other responsibilities such as getting Read/Write World up and running, which is also a very important and very large undertaking which requires careful planning. http://bit.ly/readwriteworld for more info.
That's the problem. Why do you think MS gets so bashed among the tech community for being so fragmented? MS shouldn't be about team vs team. The photosynth team should be working for MS.
When was the last time Apple released something for Windows first? I don't think they have ever done that, even though Windows has the greatest penetration. Where is Facetime for Windows for example? Where is Garageband and Final Cut etc? They could be making tons of money from Windows users. But Apple knows better than to make Windows users happy. They don't want to make Android users happy either. Why should MS go out of their way to make Apple users happy?
While WP7 is struggling, MS is actually making a rival platform more feature complete and more attractive. Instead of us WP7 users showing off cool MS apps to iPhone users, it's the other way around.
Shame on you MS.
The question still remains. If the photosynth team is so intent on getting the tech out to the public, why did they release iOS first and not Android, even though Android has the greatest penetration? And now why are focusing on WP7 and not Android. All these excuses reeks of lies. It's highly likely that my next phone will be an iPhone. Job well done, Photosynth team.
Digger, all I'm hearing from you is hatred, frustration, and accusations of lies against Microsoft. You say that you are a fan of Microsoft, but if this is how you treat people you want to succeed, then I feel sorry for your teammates, friends, and family members.
It feels to me as though, instead of listening to what Photosynth team members have said and trying to understand why things are the way they are, you only want to stir up the same anger and frustration in others here in the Photosynth community that you feel inside yourself against the Photosynth team and Microsoft in general. I want to ask you, how would an Apple or Google loyalist, who wanted to make Microsoft fans and users turn against Microsoft, behave differently than you have behaved so far in this discussion?
You haven't any of my questions. Please go back to my last two posts and try to answer them. Why did MS release an iOS app instead of Android if they say they wanted to reach the public? Why are they working on WP7 app now instead of Android if they want to reach the public? Doesn't it smack of lies to you?
Stop changing goal posts. I was a HUGE MS fan, that's why I bought a WP7 phone as soon as one came out because I wanted it to succeed. I am less of a fan now that I have seen how MS treats its loyal customers. I bought WP7 because I thought MS would reward and attract new customers by releasing cool apps and games. But what do I see, they constantly bring out apps and updates on other platforms instead.
It's not just me who is frustrated. Look around the web. Even Apple fans are laughing at MS for releasing an iOS app ahead of WP7.
If WP7 fails, the main reason would be MS's attitude towards WP7 in comparison to other platforms.
Do you think Xbox would have succeeded if they released Halo on PS2? MS could have made tons of revenue and profit by publishing games for other platforms (remember they sell hardware for loss and make profits from content). But of course they don't do that. They know that the Xbox platform is valuable. MS needs to do the same for all its platforms. Windows platform is valuable. WP7 platform is valuable. Don't undermine your own platforms by releasing software on other platforms.
What was MS thinking saving Apple back in the day? They should have left Apple to die. Do you think anyone in MS thinks that was a good decision now? What are they still doing with Office for Mac when Macs are constantly eroding the Windows marketshare?
All MS software should be for users of MS platforms only.
So, Mango is OUT. When will we be able to download this AWESOME app?:)
Mango has been out for a while denisvvf, and I have been asking the same question since then. Where is the app?
@denisvvf, the Photosynth team is hard at work on the Windows Phone app, but their team has never announced a launch date in advance and they're not going to do so this time either.
I have collected Photosynth team members' comments about the Windows Phone version of their app here, though, and after reading through it, you should not have any doubt whatsoever that the app is coming and it is being worked on even now.
Talk is cheap. Mango has been out for a while and Mango beta has been out for longer. I am guessing Photosynth would have access to pre-beta Mango versions.
Given that Photosynth team members said that they were actually helping the Windows Phone team build the necessary components of WP 7.5, I'd say you're right about them having early access.
Based on past updates (to the Silverlight viewer after new versions of Silverlight with updated capabilities were released, for example), I would say that the Photosynth team tends to not start building their app on a new technology platform in earnest until it is stable, so as to avoid breaking changes from prerelease platform to RTW.
Based on the words of the Photosynth team:
1: I have no doubt in my mind that they are working on a Windows Phone app.
2: I know that they are not going to announce a launch date.
(Just look at their release history:
Original Live Labs Photosynth Community Tech Preview - no release date preannounced.
Original 2008 August release of Photosynth - no release date preannounced.
Original release of Silverlight viewer beta - no release date preannounced.
Original final release of Silverlight viewer replacing the D3D viewer - no release date preannounced.
Updates to Silverlight viewer based on updates to Silverlight - no release date preannounced.
2010 Panorama support - no release date preannounced.
2011 Mobile Apps - no release date preannounced.
2011 HTML panorama viewer for iOS - no release date preannounced.)
So, logic informs us, thus:
1: they are definitely working on the app (confirmed true) and
2: it is not yet out, even though Mango now is, (obviously) then
3: work is ongoing on the Windows Phone version of the app as fast as possible.
Given this knowledge and given that even though you and I would prefer to hear an update from the team along the lines of "We expect the app to be out before the end of 2011" (a fictional quote to illustrate what I wish for), we can clearly see that their team never announces release dates for their software, so it is futile to continue to make irrational demands for a release date. It will not be forthcoming.
The only logical course, then, is to rest in the knowledge that the Windows Phone version of the app will be released as soon as it is running on most (if not all) models of Windows Phone handsets which (1) have updated to Mango and (2) have a camera.
There is a difference between releasing something without announcing, especially when there was no demand for such stuff, and announcing something (which they have done with wp7) and not provide with any update since then. Id rather the team come and straight out say they aren't going to support wp7 so that I can Nov on to another platform once my current contract runs out. Great job doing what's best for MS, photosynth team, and great job to MS managing teams so that they can strengthen rival platforms instead of your own. what's next? Is MS going to publish games for PS3? No wonder people keep on going on about how fragmented MS is and all the stuff about intra team fighting and about how the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I have always defended MS, but not now, hear this Microsoft, if you're going to release all your good stuff on other platforms, that's where I am going. I supported WP7 and this is how you treat us loyal users?
Digger, you're quite a character. ツ It's almost as though you haven't read anything the team has said. Every time you get finished reading every possible assurance that the Windows Phone app is coming you act like you just read the complete opposite.
I did not mean, when I said above, that none of the features I listed had been demoed before they were released, but rather that no specific release date was ever announced.
For example, the panorama creation app was shown for iPhone in December of 2010, but it was 125 days (4 months and 4 days) of silence from the Photosynth team until the app was suddenly up in the App Store. This has always been how they operate. Their current silence is not a sign of lack of support of Windows Phone. Rather, it would be foolish for them to publicly publish not only their objectives, but also their entire timeline (lest competitors target those dates to beat).
That would make sense if
1) Photosynth has a competitor
2) The team hadn't already released the photosynth app on a major competitors platform.
Think about it. What's more valuable for MS, Bing or Windows Phone platform? Photosynth should have never been allowed to release an app for Apple. It just makes WP7 less attractive. By releasing it for WP7 it would a cool thing that would bring in more users. Most WP7 users use Bing exclusively because it's just a good experience. Growth in WP7 would mean a natural growth in Bing.
By releasing an application for iOS, not only are they losing out on Bing growth, they are also hindering the growth of WP7.
I also wonder who might be in such a rush to get a photosynth competitor out on WP7 when all the major dev teams seem to be taking WP7 lightly. Who is this competitor which the photosynth team is so worried about that they can't even give us an update. I wonder.
I just can't agree with you that Microsoft should only make its web services available to Microsoft operating systems. That's like saying that you should only be able to log into Hotmail from Windows and Windows Phone.
You seem to be under the impression that Microsoft is making tons of awesome mobile apps for other mobile operating systems that Windows Phone isn't getting. If that's what is bothering you, then let me alleviate your concern. Once the Windows Phone version of the Photosynth app comes out, there will only be one Microsoft iOS app that isn't also on Windows Phone and that is Wonderwall - MSN's celebrity gossip site. Frankly, I don't know how anyone could care about such trash, but if you do, you can still access the content on Windows Phone via the webpage.
Here's a list of Microsoft apps on iOS:
Bing (Integrated into Windows Phone)
Bing for iPad (We'll see what happens with Windows 8)
MSN Around The World (Available for Windows Phone as 'MSN')
MSN Onit (Available for Windows Phone)
MSN Onit iPad (We'll see what happens with Windows 8)
MSN OnPoint for iPad (Available for Windows Phone and not iPhone)
OneNote (Integrated into Windows Phone)
Photosynth (Coming as soon as possible to Windows Phone)
Tag (Available for Windows Phone)
Windows Live Messenger (Integrated into Windows Phone)
Wonderwall (You can access the content via IE9 on Windows Phone)
Microsoft also makes Word, Excel, and Powerpoint for Windows Phone that it doesn't make for iOS or Android. They also make XBOX LIVE for Windows Phone that they don't make for iOS or Android.
Like you say, XBOX probably won't be making games for PS3 anytime soon and there are any number of mobile apps which will probably be exclusive to Windows Phone, but some things ought to be usable by everyone and Photosynth is one of those things. Skype is another. In other words, the more people use these services, the more valuable they are.
To not allow iPhone users or Android users to joing Windows and Windows Phone users in uploading to Photosynth is to force them to use another panorama app or
another photo geotagging service like Google's Panoramio. If Microsoft didn't make Read/Write World and Bing Maps available to iOS or Android, it would be forcing all of those people to use the next best thing: Google Earth. That's not a winning stragegy.
You could come at this from another angle, too.
What camera do you think is the most commonly used model in all the world to upload photos to the internet? I would say that flickr is probably the most commonly used photo sharing site outside of Facebook. Take a look at 'Most Popular Cameras in the Flickr Community': http://www.flickr.com/cameras/
Either the Photosynth team could wait a year to release the iPhone version of their mobile app until the Windows Phone team finally got all the necessary APIs into Windows Phone 7.5 while millions of iPhone 4 users become attached to other panorama apps or Photosynth could make both the iOS and Windows Phone versions available as soon as each operating system could let them and gain momentum via word of mouth among users of the most popular camera among photo sharers on the entire planet.
If Photosynth's mobile app was exclusive to WinPhone, I have my doubts as to how many people would convert to WinPhone just to use it. Don't get me wrong: it's a great little app and once it adds more features like viewing photosynths, shooting and viewing spin movies, and uploading videos which link photosynths, spin movies, and panoramas, it'll be even cooler, but in the immediate future it's just a snazzy panorama uploader and viewer and if it wasn't on iOS, you'd just have all the iPhone owners defending the next best options that are on their App Store: likely Occipital's 360 for a live shooting mode or AutoStith for the highest resolution end results. It would be like people arguing which platforming mascot, sports franchise, puzzle game, racing, fighting, or shooting game was better on different consoles, rather than being able to enjoy both.
By making an iPhone app, millions of people who won't give up their iPhone will contribute panoramas to Bing Maps.
And that's the reason why MS is seen as being fragmented and why Apple is kicking Microsoft ass in this decade.
MS reminds me of a kid who shares everything but gets nothing in return.
Apple didn't port iTunes to Android because he doesn't want to make Android users happy. Where is Facetime for Windows or Android? Where are the official Google apps on WP7? Why should MS be the only one to make users of other platforms happy while completely ignoring their own.
How many Apple users do you think use Bing? How many Photosynth iOS users do you think use Bing? Everywhere I go, Bing is universally made fun out of. On the other hand the majority of WP7 users prefer Bing. If you want to grow Bing, grow WP7.
It's also how Ms treats their users compared to users of other platforms. The official WLM was released on iOS first while WP7 just got a buggy client from a third party dev. Bing and OneNote in many ways are superior on iOS. I bet Windows 8 won't have Bing app.
And why do you think users of other platforms ought to be automatically use services like Skype or Photosynth? Like I said, where is Facetime for WP7 or Windows or Android? Apple doesn't do anything like this and look how succesfful they are.
It might not directly attract new users, but it would show that MS rewards its customers and it would increase brand loyalty. What do you think is going to happen when WP7 users see MS giving away apps to other platforms while their own is stuggling? Of couse they will just dump WP7 and MS intead of being a platform builder will just be dependant on another platform vendor like Apple.
You give the example of consoles. And that's the perfectly example. Why do you think there is such passion behind Xbox or PS3 or iPhone? Because of exclusive apps. MS needs to understand that. If MS wants WP7 users to have passion, then they need to give them something shout about.
How can I be passionate about WP7 when I see all these apps going the other way. How can be passionate about WP7 when all the apps I have are available on other platform, and often work better. How can I be passionate about WP7 when I have to borrow my friends iPhone just to use MS services.
Releasing photosynth on iOS first was a short term move, MS needs to think long term. MS needs to work for itself and not others. How much has the Bing division last in the past few years? If MS used that money to release exclusive free apps and games on WP7, Bing would have grown naturally alongside WP7. But instead you have Bing in a losing position, WP7 in a losing position, Rival mobile platforms laughing at MS for releasing apps on their platforms first.
PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
I have asked you time and time again. If you wanted to go for reach why didn't you release an Android app shortly after iOS? Why are you releasing WP7 first instead of Android? You used that excuse for iOS when Android has the highest reach and now you choose to ignore in leaving it behind WP7? When it comes to iOS, reach is important, but when it comes to Android, reach isn't? Think about all the users you are losing out by not providing an app for Android!
It all smacks of lies to me. Sort yourself out. I have already started looking at Android phones. Thanks Photosynth team! You just lost MS a customer and you just lost Bing a customer and you just lost WP7 a customer.
Digger, I just can't figure out where you're coming from. "Microsoft shares everything"? Please list specific examples. The list of Microsoft apps for other platforms is very short.
You ask where Facetime for Windows or Android is. Apple said that they would release FaceTime as an open format. This isn't unbelievable, being as it's built out of standard technologies and Apple does open source things (a recent example being their lossless audio codec), but the longer they take to do this, the more they shoot themselves in the foot. When the Skype app comes out on Windows Phone, I will ask my cousins who own iPhones to chat with me via Skype. They cannot ask me to use FaceTime on my Windows Phone because Apple has foolishly chosen to not allow others to build their own FaceTime clients yet. That's a win for Microsoft and a loss for Apple in the world of video chat.
As for where the Google apps are for WP7, I too have been displeased with Google's lack of attention paid to Windows Phone. Google's decisions over the years have made me less and less of a fan, but I do use Google Earth and Google Chrome is my second favorite web browser. Thankfully Internet Explorer 9 is so quick on WinPhone that I don't even miss Chrome, but if Google is willing to take the time to make Google Earth for Linux, you kind of wish that they would take the time to make a version for WinPhone as well.
On the other hand, however, Google Maps' website is working towards having a WebGL version of Google Earth that runs in modern browsers without a plugin. Internet Explorer is the only modern browser refusing to support this standard for 3D on the web, unfortunately, and so far no other web browser vendor makes their browser for WinPhone. I don't know if that's snobbery on Opera, Mozilla, and Google's part or if WinPhone doesn't approve other browsers.
Digger, a lot of your angst deserves to be pointed at the Windows Phone team, to be honest. You want to know why there wasn't a Windows Live Messenger app for Windows Phone until Threads had built in support in Mango? Easy answer: iOS supported sockets. Windows Phone did not support sockets until Mango. That's the same reason that Skype didn't say anything about coming to WinPhone until after Mango released. Until Windows Phone adds more tools that developers need to the WP7 OS, you don't get great apps. Thankfully Mango added a lot that devs needed. I get the impression that it still doesn't offer quite an equal feature set to program against yet, but I'm sure they're much closer now, so props to the WinPhone team for that.
I don't know, when you talk about all the apps you have on Windows Phone being available on other mobile OSes, whether you're talking about Microsoft-made apps or third party apps. If you're talking about third parties, that's up to them.
I really don't have any doubt that I'll have both Photosynth and Skype apps downloaded to my Windows Phone within the next several months. What are you going to cry about, after that, my friend? What Microsoft services do you imagine that you'll have to use a friend's iPhone in order to use?
As for releasing Photosynth on iOS being a short term move, I could see it being wise in both the short and long term, however I guarantee you that the Bing team is looking at the long term and basing their plans on that.
You keep making the, "Why should MS be the only one to make users of other platforms happy while completely ignoring their own?" accusatio, but where is your evidence for this? Literally the only Microsoft properties not yet having apps on WinPhone yet are Wonderwall, Skype, and Photosynth. Wonderwall doesn't matter, Skype was on other platforms first because of lack of sockets in WP7.0, + Photosynth needed Mango too. Skype + Photosynth are en route to WP7.
In reply to your question about Android, I've given you these answers twice already, but since you keep ignoring my links, here they are pasted here:
2011 04 21: Blaise A.
"Re. Android, if our decision were purely based on market reach today, I’d agree. (Though if things go as we hope and expect, the calculus will look different!) That can’t be the only factor, though. In addition to lots of praise for the app, we’ve gotten a certain amount of trolling about not keeping our powder totally dry to release first on WinPhone, and acting like “One Microsoft”. I’ll reiterate that market reach or no market reach, we would have developed first for WinPhone if that had been technically feasible without holding the ship for months. It’s a delicate tradeoff, and one that causes angst no matter which way we choose. It’ll be great not to have to keep making this particular tradeoff. We’re working closely with WinPhone to get the enabling capabilities into the platform."
2011 04 21: David G.
"...to everyone who is asking about the availability of the app on other platforms: The answer is that Windows Phone 7 is definitely next (we couldn't do it any earlier due to the unavailability of the correct APIs on the platform -- yes, even to us!). We would love to release an Android version too, because we want to be wherever the smartphone users are, but commitment to an Android release will need to wait until we've got our WP7 one done."
2011 05 11: David G.
"The answer is simple.
Windows Phone 7.0 didn’t have the video-mode API’s to allow us to provide the capture experience that everyone loves about our app. Neither did Android. Only iOS did at that time and we (correctly I think) judged that a great capture experience was essential to lots of usage.
Mango appears to have the right APIs. We are working with them now."
2011 06 ??: Tony E.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to give you all a heads up. We're hard at work on an update to the iPhone App, a WP7 version is next. We can see the value of an Android version, but our team is only large enough to work on one platform at a time."
2011 06 29: David G.
"Our next priority -- for obvious reasons -- is Windows Phone 7 Mango. After that we'll consider other platforms, including Android."
Hopefully that answers your Android question.
Your fellow photosynther,
1)WP7 did support sockets even before mango. It just wasn't available for 3rd party devs. MS is NOT a third party dev. Was the Bing app created in the managed dev environment? Was the Office app careted in the managed environment? No. Why should the WLM team be limited in that fashion? MS had EVERYTHING required to make a client for WP7 but instead outsourced it.
2)How long has it been since Apple promised to open up facetime? Since it's based on open standards, it shouldn't have taken them this long to open it up if they really wanted to.
3)If Google can release apps for Symbian phones, they sure as hell can release apps for Windows phone.
You also said "I really don't have any doubt that I'll have both Photosynth and Skype apps downloaded to my Windows Phone within the next several months."
Sounds like a broken record to me. That's pretty much everyone has been saying ever since the photosynth app for iOS came out. Somehow I doubt you will get those in the next few months.
One thing which I don't get is why some teams are so insistent on using managed code when the Office team, Bing team, Zune team, IE team are happy using the native code. EVERYTHING was there pre mango for MS to release a photosynth app. LG released an augmented reality app which showed this. They could have speeded everything up by reusing code from the iOS app.
And last but not least.
PLEASE ANSWER THIS NATE. You have given links but they don't answer anything at all. Explain this.
2011 04 21: Blaise A.
"Re. Android, if our decision were purely based on market reach today, I’d agree.
So wait, was the decision to release an iOS app based on market reach or not? Why is Android being treated differently? Why is the market reach not important for Android? If market reach wasn't important for Android, why couldn't the photosynth team wait till WP7 app came out until they released it for other platforms?
This is the inconsistency in Microsofts excuses which forces me to call out the Photosynth team as a bunch of liars. One moment, market reach is important that's why iOS was released ahead of WP7, another moment, market reach isn't important and that's why Android is put on hold until WP7 app is out.
Also look at this
"Hey everyone, just wanted to give you all a heads up. We're hard at work on an update to the iPhone App, a WP7 version is next. "
The team is prioritizing an update, a bloody UPDATE for the iOS app OVER the WP7 app.
One more time I ask you Nate, if market reach was important to release the iOS app, why is Android being sidelined so much considering it has even higher market reach than iOS? One moment, it's important, another moment it's not. Reeks of lies to me.
In reply to Apple promising to publish their FaceTime format and Google being able to support Windows Phone, I agree with you. This is one reason that I don't trust Google. Both of those threads of discussion are irrelevant to Photosynth publishing an app for WinPhone.
As far as you doubting that WinPhone users will soon be able to download our own copy of the Photosynth for WinPhone app now that Mango is released, as I said above, that's your problem. It's going to happen and then all of your naysaying will be seen clearly for the waste of time that it is.
As to your entire native vs. managed code argument, I am not a developer, but I do trust the Photosynth team and David and Blaise have both said repeatedly that WinPhone 7.0 just didn't have the APIs they need but 7.5 does. Case closed. I'll take their word over yours any day.
Your LG example app is fake augmented reality. The position of the pushpins onscreen is completely independent of the video stream.
Digger, the words of David and Blaise do answer your Android question very clearly.
Here is what I understand from them:
1: Whenever possible, Bing will release things for Microsoft platforms first, because they are a Microsoft team.
2: Bing is competing against Google. Since Google makes themselves usable everywhere, so must Bing.
3: In 2010, augmented reality mobile apps began to be possible and popular. iOS was the first mobile platform to deliver tools for genuine augmented reality.
4: If Bing didn't want all iOS users to yawn when they saw the Photosynth app and say, "I've seen that before. Microsoft doesn't innovate; they only copy others and do so too late." then they needed to start developing their mobile app right away and deliver results first.
5: Although WinPhone was in development it still wasn't ready and unfortunately 7.0 didn't include the necessary APIs.
6: WinPhone 7.5 delivered the needed APIs the following year (2011). The app is in progress.
7: Now that it is possible to create a Photosynth app on Windows Phone, they are putting it first, just like they would have, earlier, if WinPhone 7.0 would have enabled them to do so.
8: Bing still wants to reach as many people as it can. Obviously, in the short term, Android is the most common mobile OS, so it's an important OS to target, but now that it is possible to create a WinPhone app, the Photosynth team won't wait a minute longer to work on the WinPhone version, especially because WinPhone's marketshare is projected to grow enormously.
9: Because their team does not have unlimited funding, they can only hire a small number of programmers. These programmers are not superhuman; they can only finish so much work at a time. Therefore, the WinPhone version of Photosynth's mobile app is a priority and bugfixes for the iOS app are also important in order for people to continue to use it.
Do you think my summary inaccurately conveys what Photosynth has said?
Digger, you said, "The team is prioritizing an update, a bloody UPDATE for the iOS app OVER the WP7 app.".
My answer to that is that it was a (very!!!) necessary bug fix to repair a bug which was not allowing people to log in with Windows Live ID (to upload their panoramas to their Photosynth account or Bing Maps) without the app crashing. Windows Phone Mango still wasn't stable yet, so I'm not surprised that in June, the Photosynth team was working on an update to their iOS app. To do anything else would have been completely irresponsible and self-sabotage.
1)wp7 DID have all the necessary Apis. They were just not available to third party devs. LGs Aug reality app was not a fake app. Noone who has used it has claimed it is fake. MS has access to the same SDKs that the OEMs get and more. Was the office app written in c#? Was the Bing app written in cl#? Was IE written in c#? No. This clearly shows that photosynth has access to more than they claim.
2)if they want to compete against google so bad why not release on android first?
3)lets assume your claim about wp7.0 is TRUE. If the team wanted market reach why did they release for IOS first and not android, given the higher reach? Why wasn't the order android, wp7.5, IOS. Like I said it all sounds like lies.
At the end of the day I've made my mind up. Due to actions or lack of action from the photosynth, you have lost yourself a wp7 customer, a photosynth customer and a Bing customer. And there are many like me. When I brought in facetime or google apps, I was showing how those two companies keep their apps exclusive to themselves. If apple wanted higher reach they would have released to android and windoes by now. Looks at how passionate iPhone and users are about their platforms. How I am suposed to be passionate about wp7 when I am nothing to shout about? Apple users have siri facetime etc. Android has navigation. What does wp7 have?
Let me ask you this
. Would the Xbox have survived had it not had halo as an exclusive? Ms could have thought about the market reach and the revenue and released for all platforms. But then Xbox would be dead. Instead Xbox is leading Sony and has a passionate user base. All due to exclusives.
Exclusives are the key to success if you introduce a new platform like WP. The Bing team is hurting WP really bad. You won't get loyal apple users and loyal google users to switch to Bing no matter what. The Bing app on android is viewed as malware by many for example. Instead of gaining new users Bing is losing existing loyal MS users due to the action of the photosynth team. Not just Bing, but you lose a WP user as well.
Look at how successful apple has become. its because they know how to keep exclusives. Its because they don't compete with everyone everywhere. Bing team doesn't need to go to war in other platforms. How much money have you lost doing that and how much shared have you gained in return? Share isn't everything either its the revenue. You are just users away from wp7 and Bing.
You also lose revenue from the app store purchases. Well done photosynth team. You better hope the app is not going to be ad supported like the free Xbox live games on wp7.
If they can release free apps in other platforms without ads but on wp7 they have them, just goes to show how they treat their users.
Here is what Apple users think of MS and WP7 in general
What are you doing catering to such users who obviously hate MS? You're like the wife that keeps going back to her abusive husband.
By releasing Photosynth for iOS, not only you are losing WP7 customers to iPhone, you are also losing Windows customers to Macs because once they get an iPhone they start using other Apple products as well.
Think for once, Photosynth team.
Digger, please either keep it constructive or don't post.
You're now neither asking for help nor offering feedback that's useful to the Photosynth team or to the Photosynth community.
If you would like to discuss Windows Phone strategy and offer their team advice, the following link is the appropriate place.
If you would like to give XBOX LIVE advice relating to their efforts on Windows Phone, the following link is the appropriate place.
If you would like to discuss Bing strategy and offer their team advice, the following links are the appropriate place.
Too late now. I am no longer a WP7, Bing or photosynth customer. Good bye.
I hope that when you get your Android phone you can begin enjoying life again instead of feeling so much frustration.
Take care. ツ
How's the wp7 app coming along?
Hey there =) Greetings from Bolivia, i wanted to know if photosynth is somehow gonna be able to be used by third party applications, i'm starting to dev for WP7 i was wondering that, thx so much for your answer in advance.
@MadpigPOW, I don't blame you for not reading all of the above, but two of the links I gave Digger1985 above contain all of the Photosynth team's quotes about the Windows Phone app. The latest mention of was November 5th.
http://bit.ly/synthywinphone or https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=0EF7A30C1E7B926C&resid=EF7A30C1E7B926C!2269
@JorgeCupi, I am only a Photosynth end user, but I am curious about which part of Photosynth you wish to use in your own apps.
Are you imagining viewing photosynths and panoramas inside of your app?
If so, then stay tuned to news of Bing Read/Write World's RML viewer here: http://bit.ly/readwriteworld
If you are instead imagining using Photosynth's image matching engine in your own app on the phone, then that's probably less likely, but I am only able to guess.
I would like for other higher resolution panorama apps, like AutoStitch to be able to upload panos to my Photosynth account.
What did you have in your mind?
@Nathanael, kinda =) I want to use photosynth to view photosynths and panoramas inside my app, let's just hope for the release, greetings, and thanks for the link
give us some hope about photosynth for wp7.Photosynth team should take serioully the importance of this app form wp plateform
@Herbyzoum, please read what the Photosynth team has said about the Windows Phone app.
I've gathered their words into one place with this Word doc and Bitly bundle:
Based on their words, I don't know how else they could communicate that they understand the importance of their mobile app for Windows Phone.
I know that waiting without knowing when to expect you can stop waiting is frustrating, but please be patient.
Here's how I think about the waiting time:
1: We know that the Photosynth team has been working on their Windows Phone app and said it's their top priority in mobile development.
2: We know that what was holding them back (the 7.5|Mango update for Windows Phone) has been out for 80 days, so we can expect they've been making progress.
3: They wouldn't fool around and go slowly in making the WP7 app.
4: They wouldn't just stop working on the app (except maybe for Christmas holidays|vacation).
5: They wouldn't finish the WP7 app and then not publish it.
So... the only thing left to think is that they're working on the app every day and something must be pretty difficult about porting their iPhone app to Windows Phone because it is such a complicated app under the hood - and that's why it's taking so long.
Nathanael is right, all we have to do is wait, i mean. WP Mango is out for only 80 days, it's not like we were gonna have photosynth the next day
I'm a big fan of the Photosynth App, but it's really ridiculous that I can only use it on my old iPhone and not my Windows Phone. I hope you guys get it sorted out soon.
To my fellow Windows Phone users:
I understand the desire for Photosynth's mobile app to come out on Windows Phone as soon as possible. I want it too.
I know that being able to stitch and upload your panoramas from your phone is a great convenience.
I know that we're all impressed by the realtime image tracking while shooting a panorama.
We are having to wait for all of those things.
But, did you know that if you take photos for a panorama on your Windows Phone today and then use http://bit.ly/microsoftice on Windows to stitch those photos into a panorama and upload it here to Photosynth's website that it will actually be much higher resolution than it will be if you use their mobile app on Windows Phone or iPhone?
This is because current phone hardware cannot easily save full resolution imagery to its flash memory and do smooth tracking at the same time. http://bit.ly/psmpr
In the mean time, practice how to shoot a good panorama http://bit.ly/howtopano
I don't know about anyone else, but I thought it was a stroke of genius to release Photosynth for iOS first.
Firstly, the fact that it made it's debut on iOS (over WP) resulted in an increased interest in the product.
Secondly, and more importantly, it literally forces iPhone users to register for a Windows Live ID, and by default become a part of the Windows Live ecoystem.
IMO, Bing, whilst important, is only a piece of the puzzle. The past couple of years have seen MS making progress in knitting together all it's products (Office, Xbox Live, Messenger etc) through Windows Live. Now we can tangibly see the Metro UI/UX spreading from WP to XBox and finally to Windows 8. As a point of interest, Windows 8 apparently requires users to have a Windows Live ID.
Going back to Apple, all MS needs to do is release more Windows Live Apps onto iOS. Just this month they released a cut-down version of WP's Xbox Companion app.
Query: I don't have an iPhone, does the Photosynth app allow you to save/upload to Skydrive? If not, I see there's potential for more usage of Windows Live from non-MS fans...
Again, acquiring Skype was a stroke of genius. No doubt, Skype accounts will soon become Windows Live ID's... How many Android and iOS users have Skype on their phones? lol...
hello !! I want my christmas gift...#photosynth for wp7.
Mango is in Austria :) Where is Photosynth? :(
More than WP7 users who have Skype on their phone for sure lol...
i want my photosynth app right now...!
give us some information about your work
Pano is now available in marketplace.We are waiting for photosynth to
This post really made me laugh...i too bought a windows phone...and I love using photosynth on my wife's iPhone....and nearly 3 months after this post was started....the iPhone has Photosynth and my W7 phone does not. I didn't buy this phone for one app...but I am very jealous of my wife's apps that are exclusive for her phone...my phone just lost its luster after comparing it to the iPhone or some of the new Android phones. I know this isn't a photosynth problem...but I hope it highlights what the Digger user was talking about. I just don't feel like MS is doing their part in making apps and updates that lets me brag about my phone. Hope to see photosynth soon...and hoping for some exclusive apps from the MS team that will let me display my phone to the majority of smartphone users.
perhaps Derp can help develop photosynth...
IamA Windows 7 phone user who's jealous that Microsoft apps are on the iOS and Android first...AmA
So Chris, are you planning to move away from WP7? I certainely am. And I am sure there are many people like me. I just cannot believe how blind MS is. How can they not realize that giving away software to other people is just going to harm their platform.
Check it out: panoramas and photosynths shot on my Windows Phone. http://photosynth.net/search.aspx?q=wp7
There's nothing stopping any of you from doing the same.
While having the app makes capturing panoramas easier and allows you to upload them right away, waiting a few short hours to stitch them on your laptop or desktop will allow them to be about ten times higher resolution for the rest of time.
nathanael i juste want photosynth for wp7. I have any plan to give up wp plateform.
Give us some demo of the beta
Herbyzoum, I don't have a beta of a WP7 app.
What I do have are finished versions of the Photosynth and ICE app for Windows that are more powerful than the WP7 app will ever be.
I'm just saying that if what you really want to shoot panoramas and photosynths with your phone, you don't have to wait for Photosynth's mobile version of ICE to start.
You can shoot them today, like I showed with my previous link above.
If that was a solution, why release the iPhone app in the first place?
Digger, sll I'm saying is that there's nothing to stop you from making panoramas or photosynths if that is what you actually want to do.
Wasn't stopping the iPhone users from doing that either. So why release the app in the first place? In fact it could have been a major selling point for WP7. Hey look, you can take pictures and make photosynths/panoramas on your computer, but if you have a WP7, you can make them on your phone as well.
Oh well, Android here I come!
Digger, you're right about one thing: not having the mobile app wasn't stopping iPhone users from using the Microsoft ICE or Photosynth apps for Windows either.
You say that the Photosynth mobile app "could have been a major selling point for WP7".
I say that the Photosynth mobile app still can/will be a major selling point for WP7.
Since you profess ignorance of the reason for the mobile app, I can think of two which I consider primary:
1: Convenience (at the sacrifice of quality) of stitching + uploading before you get back to your office or home
2: Interactive shooting mode helps pano newbies remember what they've shot + what they still need to.
You've been saying that you're moving to Android for months. I guess that means that you're determined to be the last person on the planet to be able to use a mobile Photosynth app. Perhaps if the Photosynth team ever makes an Android app, you'll leave Android and get a Blackberry so you can keep moaning.
The funny thing is that one of the excuses for the iPhone app was that they wanted to reach the majority of the users. Well if that was a valid excuse, they would have released an Android app by now since it has the largest smartphone penetration! It's pretty much like MS saying they want to reach the largest userbase and only release something for Macs and not Windows. Hilarious!
And no, photosynth is not a selling point for WP7 anymore because what sane person would buy WP7 when they can get Photosynth for iOS already PLUS thousands of other apps that are not on WP7. I am sure sales of Xbox would slow down if MS started publishing all their Xbox exclusives to PS3 since if you buy a PS3 you can play all those new games from MS PLUS exclusives for PS3.
Just think about it. And I am not the only one who feels this way. For example Chris above shares the same frustation.
Digger, you've always overemphasized the importance of wanting to release the app to meet the largest current mobile OS. The page that hosts the quote you're talking about also says that they absolutely would have developed their app for WinPhone first if the WinPhone platform had been ready for them.
Also, at the time that they started creating the iOS app, Android was not yet ahead of iOS in sales, so no, there is no reason why they would have gone for Android. Now that Android has more phones out there than everybody else (although the majority of them wouldn't run Photosynth's mobile app anyway), and WinPhone's OS does enable the creation of a Photosynth app for us, it would be an incredible insult to WinPhone users to have the Android app come out first. That's not going to happen. Just to reiterate, the WinPhone version of the app would have come out first, had the WinPhone OS been ready.
I think 2012 will be the year that WP's # of apps really catches up.
we the wp7 users want to say you "it's time to release this app"
So two months nearly gone in 2012 and still no sign of Photosynth either on WP7 or Android. If Photosynth is currently not possible on WP even with Mango, then they should release the Android app ASAP.
Photosynth team is fast becoming a running joke. When WP dies, many fingers will be pointed towards how MS releases apps for other platforms and not its own.
I see Nate is speculating that Photosynth still might not be possible with Mango. In that case, please release an Android app since WP app isn't possible. Wasn't that why you released an iOS app first, because WP app wasn't then possible? Why are you waiting Android users wait just because you're having problems with the WP app?
Is this Nathanael some kind of Microsoft lawyer or representative?
No, I'm just an end user like everyone else here.
It's only that I've been using Photosynth since it launched on Windows in 2008 (and waiting for it to come out on Windows for over a year since I'd first heard about it before that), so I've been through the frustration of waiting without word of a release date before.
In fact, if you look up the videos from July of 2006 when Photosynth was first announced through early 2008 at http://docs.com/XFO you'll see that although the Photosynth team didn't make any hard promises, they thought that the initial ship date for Windows would actually be much earlier than 2008 August 20 when they finally did make it publicly available.
In that sense, there is a parallel to them thinking that they would be on Windows Phone by Fall of 2011.
I think that it is reasonable to be disappointed that the Windows Phone app is taking so long, but there is nothing to be gained by our insulting each other or Photosynth.
I think that for me, personally, if I were to vent my biggest frustration, it would be that there is still no way to *view* photosynths and panoramas on Windows Phone.
I can definitely believe that creating an app that tracks and captures your incoming video feed in real time takes a language faster than C# (which both Silverlight and XNA apps use on WinPhone) and that because there is not yet support for unmanaged C++ apps, we haven't yet seen Photosynth's mobile app.
From where I'm standing, though, the Photosynth *viewer* could have easily been ported back in the Fall of 2010, so that we Windows Phone users could at least enjoy browsing the website here. This would have also meant that we would have been able to shoot panoramas and photosynths on our phones (using the default camera app), stitch them on Windows, and then view them on Windows, Mac OSX, iOS, and Windows Phone. That would have tided me over quite nicely.
Unfortunately, I know that if they had released a viewer app for WinPhone before the iOS app, all the tech world would have crowed, "The iOS app does more than the Windows Phone one!", and if Photosynth had released a simple viewer app *after* they released the iOS app as a token of good faith toward Windows Phone users with an explanation of why the shooting mode would have to wait a little longer on Windows Phone but that it would be out as soon as technical requirement X were in place, all the tech blogs would have written trolling headlines like, "Photosynth releases app for Windows Phone, but takes out the part that people love about their iPhone app until Windows Phone improves". Either of those scenarios leads to animosity between Windows Phone users and Photosynth over the first version of the Windows Phone app and sets the wrong tone, even after updates come out that make the hypothetical early viewer app feature complete with the iOS app.
Ultimately, it is better for user relations on Windows Phone if the first version of our app does everything that the iOS app does and does it just as well. At that point, even if much more acute frustration had built up in the mean time than had there been a viewer app in the interim, Windows Phone users can simply breathe a sigh of relief, smile, and be happy that they finally have the app.
Again, I can see a huge benefit to at least having a viewer app for Windows Phone, but I can also see the possible negative side effects - like people still having a bad taste in their mouth even after the two apps are identical to the end user or people doing a side by side comparison of the iPhone app and the Windows Phone app before the Windows Phone version had interactive shooting and onboard stitching + uploading.
I don't have any inside knowledge. I just have faith that the Photosynth team's actions have reasonable explanations which we do not yet understand.
"all the tech blogs would have written trolling headlines like, "Photosynth releases app for Windows Phone, but takes out the part that people love about their iPhone app until Windows Phone improves". Either of those scenarios leads to animosity between Windows Phone users and Photosynth over the first version of the Windows Phone app and sets the wrong tone, even after updates come out that make the hypothetical early viewer app feature complete with the iOS app."
Unfortunately now you have headlines such as "MS releases Photosynth iOS, ignores WP7" and "Photosynth released for iPhone, WP7 not mature enough". If MS wanted to avoid tech media trolling, then they clearly failed when they released the app for iOS and not WP7. If they truly wanted the avoid trolling they would not have released the iOS app until WP7 app was ready.
Digger, I'm not saying that the iOS app being out for a year before the WinPhone one is ideal.
I'm saying that there is no possible way from a public relations standpoint with the average user to release only a viewer app on WinPhone (either before or after the iOS app) without matters being worse than they currently are.
And MS would have known that before choosing to release iOS and would have had the option to not release the iOS app until WP7 app was ready. Instead they released it full well knowing the PR problems, the media trolling and the pissed off users that would happen.
"Honestly, my hope is that the Photosynth app for Windows Phone is out before 2012. If that turns out to be the case, then we can say that the iPhone and Windows Phone versions came out the same year. Yes the iPhone version came a little earlier, but it's not too a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Once both apps are out, I definitely expect them to be updated in parallel, though."
Well we will be lucky if it came about before 2013 now. And yes the iPhone version came out a LOT earlier and it IS a big deal. You do sound like Apple apologists who will defend anything Apple does. How long are you prepared to wait before critising MS?
While I did personally hope that Photosynth's Windows Phone app would be out by the end of 2011, they certainly didn't promise that they would. There is a difference there.
Now, if you look at some of their comments on their weblog entries, I think we can safely say that they had hoped to release in late 2011, but unfortunately that was not to be.
Is there *any* reason why the Windows Phone version of the app won't be out during 2012? None that I can see.
As for criticizing Photosynth I have my criticisms and they largely revolve around upper management not giving enough resources to Photosynth's team That results in not enough Photosynth programmers and subsequently not fast enough progress
Sadly by supporting other Microsoft teams' technology CI am thinking of Silverlight specifically) Photosynth actually took a step backwards rather than forward in the goal of cross platform viewing Cross platform viewing is a great goal but Silverlight just wasn't built to create ED graphics
We saw dense point cloud reconstruction demoed in May of 2OO9 but because Silverlight is being used for Photosynth's viewer and #%!@il Silverlight 5's recent release) Silverlight had no support for your GPU dense point clouds is not yet a feasible feature Even now Silverlight 5's ED acceleration only works on Windows machines with a DirectX9 or higher card whereas the original DirectED viewer worked on DirectX B cards
The Photosynth folks are now working on their new Read/Write World viewer that will use CSS3, HTML5, and WebGL to open photosynths, panoramas, spin movies, etc. and those are features that are GPU accelerated, but again, require DirectX9 cards when the graphics being generated are nothing that could not be generated with DirectX8 cards.
This is not the Photosynth team's fault, though, but rather blame for the higher video card requirements lie at the feet of the Silverlight 5 team, the W3C, and the Khronos Group and browser vendors.
We can also blame the Internet Explorer team for not implementing CSS3:3D Transforms until IE 10 and not supporting WebGL at all.
Again, we've seen Spin Movies demoed almost exactly a year ago, but there isn't any sign of it yet, due to these fragmented graphics technologies support.
I actually have a lot of praise for what is being done with R/WW's RML viewer, but it is painful to wait for a sign of progress.
In any case, I have plenty of things that bug me about the lack of progress on a number of fronts, but I don't think that this gives us the right to call people liars when they haven't lied to us.
I am positive that I have more hard questions for Photosynth's team than just about anyone else, but at the end of the day these are folks whose work I admire and enjoy. I had the opportunity to meet some of them back in 2008 and I wouldn't want to act in a way online that I would be ashamed of if I meet them in person again. Personally, I think that the entire internet would be a better place if everyone followed this policy.
Now, if I visited Microsoft's offices and found out that Photosynth's team hadn't even tried to make a Windows Phone app or were personally biased against the Windows Phone platform, I would be upset, but thus far that is a purely hypothetical (read: fictional) scenario.
Until then, I intend to be supportive, rather than destructive.
You are making all these excuses without considering that Photosynth is a part of MS. Photosynth should be working towards progressing MS forwards. At the moment all they are doing is alienating their users. Where there is a will there is a way. If IE, Bing, Office teams etc could get access to native code, then the Photosynth team, if they really wanted to could get access to native code.
"Is there *any* reason why the Windows Phone version of the app won't be out during 2012? None that I can see."
Well, if the Mango is not good enough for the team to port their app and are waiting for Apollo in Q4 2012, we would then still be in the same situation as Mango with Q4 2011. They will wait for the final Apollo version before working on the app and when they do, who knows what other problems they might face. Maybe Apollo will not be good enough either and they will have to wait till the next release of WP.
They never should have released the iOS app. As it is, it doesn't do anything to further MS. Will photosynth users convert to Bing? Highly unlikely. Will photosynth users converto WP7? Highly unlikely since WP7 doesn't even have bing. Will photosynth users convert to Windows? Possible not.
What it IS doing is alinating WP7 and Android users.
"but I don't think that this gives us the right to call people liars when they haven't lied to us."
If you look at
April 21, 2011 at 12:30 am
Thanks Sam! Re. Android, if our decision were purely based on market reach today, I’d agree."
So wait, is there some internal policy that keeps them from releasing the App on Android? Why wasn't the same policy applied to iOS? Why is Android users treated different to iOS users?
How do you think WP7 users feel being treated like third class citizens? How do you feel WP7 users feel when you have to ask your friends iPhone to use Photosynth.
Would you ever see Apple release something on competitors platform first and not release on their own platform for nearly a year? That's the main difference between Apple and MS, and that's why Apple is dominating. Apple acts like "one apple", MS has factions like Photosynth fighting against other destroying MS from within.
Also looking at this
When was the last time we had any official confirmation about the WP7 app? All I see if people asking for it and you replying to them saying "it's being made" and then linking to stuff a year old.
Reasons are not excuses, Digger.
I am not impressed by your presence here because it has been patently clear ever since you showed up that you do not care about making photosynths and panoramas. If you did, you would have used the Windows apps to do so by now.
The only reason you are here is to throw mud at Microsoft and pick a fight.
Contrary to your statement, Photosynth is working to progress Bing Maps and therefore Microsoft.
You say, "the Photosynth team, if they really wanted to could get access to native code.".
Yeah, I believe that too. In fact, I believe that is why they said that they would ship on Mango.
Guess what. Mango is still out. Apollo is not. Therefore even if it takes a couple more months to release, Photosynth's Windows Phone app will have come out on Mango, just like they said.
No one from Microsoft has yet said that Mango is not good enough to release a Photosynth app on.
That is a worst-case scenario and one that I think they would have come forward and said something about by now, if that were truly the case.
>I am not impressed by your presence here because it has been patently clear ever since you showed up that you do not care about making photosynths and panoramas. If you did, you would have used the Windows apps to do so by now.
Erm what makes you think I haven't use Windows apps to make panaromas and photosynths? Just because I don't share them online?
>Guess what. Mango is still out. Apollo is not. Therefore even if it takes a couple more months to release, Photosynth's Windows Phone app will have come out on Mango, just like they said.
Mango has been out for a while. And I know there is speculation that Photosynth can't be made on Mango either so they have to wait till Apollo.
However there is no guarantee that Photosynth is possible on Apollo either. Had they just asked for native code just like ALL the other teams like Bing, IE, Office, Zune etc did, then maybe they could actually have done the work a LOT quicker and been able to reuse code from the iOS app.
>That is a worst-case scenario and one that I think they would have come forward and said something about by now, if that were truly the case.
You think that, but I also think they should let us know if Mango IS good enough. The silence says everything. Not a peep from the team since the iOS app was released and they had to to go defensive due to the negative reactions from the press as well as existing WP7 users.
You do realize that WP7 is more important to MS than Bing maps? Photosynth team is doing untold amount of damage to the future of WP7 just so that they can post some better numbers. This is the kind of infighting that is damaging MS. Apple works as one. While Photosynth is destroying the future platform of MS. It's like MS publishing Halo for PS3 but not Xbox.
Man, you just make so many false allegations, it's impossible to keep up with you.
You ask, "How do you think WP7 users feel being treated like third class citizens?".
Answer: Microsoft is not treating Windows Phone users as third class citizens.
You ask, "How do you feel WP7 users feel when you have to ask your friends iPhone to use Photosynth?".
Answer: I don't have to ask to use anyone's iPhone. I take the photos with my phone and use Photosynth on Windows.
You ask why Photosynth hasn't pursued Android for the umteenth time when you know I have quoted Tony Ernst and David Gedye as saying that their team only works on one platform at a time and that they are currently working on Windows Phone.
As to the last time we had any public comment (that I am aware of) from the Photosynth team regarding their Windows Phone app, it was 2011 November 5th. That is most definitely not "a year ago".
Again, I have all the dates easily readable here: http://bit.ly/synthywinphonedoc
Digger, the current lack of a Photosynth app on Windows Phone has nothing to do with Microsoft infighting.
Photosynth isn't choosing to not support Windows Phone. They just haven't finished the app that they said that they were making for Windows Phone yet.
You say, "You think that, but I also think they should let us know if Mango IS good enough.".
Hello. That is what all the quotes from last year *do* say.
You say, "Not a peep from the team since the iOS app was released".
Again, you are mistaken. Every single statement about the Windows Phone version of the app came after the iOS app's release.
As to your nonsense about Photosynth's app not being possible on Apollo, you are insane. You don't even have evidence that it's not possible on Mango.
You say, "Erm what makes you think I haven't use Windows apps to make panaromas and photosynths? Just because I don't share them online?".
I say that because that is the express purpose of the app that you say you want. I also say that because if you had ever made a photosynth, you'd know that it is impossible to make it and not upload it.
You said, "Mango has been out for a while.".
Do you somehow think that you are telling me something I'm unaware of?
You said, "And I know there is speculation that Photosynth can't be made on Mango either so they have to wait till Apollo.".
Speculation by me, as I said above, as a worst-case scenario. Scott simply went off of my guess. None of this is official statement.
"You say, "Not a peep from the team since the iOS app was released".
Again, you are mistaken. Every single statement about the Windows Phone version of the app came after the iOS app's release."
I used the word "since" in the context of iOS app being released. Pretty much everything we know about WP7 app comes from MS being defensive because of the overwhelmingly negative reactions from the press and WP7 users around the time when iOS app was released.
If no one had attacked MS, then we wouldn't know a single thing.
>I say that because that is the express purpose of the app that you say you want.
Erm no. I want to make panoramas on my phone. I DON'T want to upload them online. I have made panos with ICE etc before. I want to do the same thing on my phone but I have to use an iPhone to do so.
>Digger, the current lack of a Photosynth app on Windows Phone has nothing to do with Microsoft infighting.
Yes it is. Photosynth team wants to post better numbers so it just ignores what other teams are doing and goes ahead and releases an iPhone app, knowing well enough that this will seriously hurt WP7 as a platform and MSs brand reputating among existing users. If there was no infighting then Photosynth would have simply waiting till the WP7 app was ready and released the apps together, just like how the Skydrive app came out together.
Why do you think MS has such a rep of infighting and the left hand not knowing what the right is doing? Photosynth is a PRIME example of this. Apple moves as a cohesive group. Apple never releases something on competiting platforms first because it knows the value of exclusives and knows how to treat its users. For example they haven't released Facetime on other platforms etc.
You say, "Pretty much everything we know about WP7 app comes from MS being defensive because of the overwhelmingly negative reactions from the press and WP7 users around the time when iOS app was released."
Please. Spare me. The announcement that their app was coming next to Windows Phone was in the iOS's release video.
Blaise's weblog entry where we get pretty much all the information about why the app wasn't on Window Phone yet (which is only reiterated elsewhere later for the benefit of those who hadn't read that entry) was posted on the same day that the iOS app released. He does comment 3 days after the iOS app was out, "...we’ve gotten a certain amount of trolling about not keeping our powder totally dry to release first on WinPhone...", but he is the sort of person who openly explains things whenever possible. I tend to think that he would have explained things, regardless of whether public outcry for the Windows Phone version had occurred yet or not.
You say, "I want to make panoramas on my phone. I DON'T want to upload them online. I have made panos with ICE etc before. I want to do the same thing on my phone but I have to use an iPhone to do so.".
If that is the case, then I submit to you that the app which you actually want on Windows Phone is AutoStitch.
The resolution of Photosynth's mobile panoramas is well known to not be as high resolution as the panoramas produced by other panorama apps on iOS because of the system resources being used during the Photosynth mobile app's interactive capture. http://bit.ly/psmpr
>If that is the case, then I submit to you that the app which you actually want on Windows Phone is AutoStitch.
Not good enough. If that's your logic then there was no need for MS to release app on iOS as here were alternatives apps which stiched photos pretty well.
There is a lack of such good apps on WP7 and Android but yet MS chooses to ignore them and go for iOS.
You say, "[AutoStitch is] Not good enough. If that's your logic then there was no need for MS to release app on iOS as here were alternatives apps which stiched photos pretty well."
Photosynth's mobile pano app's primary value propositions are the interactive capture mode (unmatched by all except perhaps Occipital's 360 Panorama and possibly DerManDar) and the sharing of either a flattened .JPG version (like everyone else) or an interactive wraparound panorama online (like Occipital and DerManDar).
You say, "There is a lack of such good apps on WP7 and Android but yet MS chooses to ignore them and go for iOS.".
Try to get this through your head: Microsoft is not ignoring Windows Phone. Photosynth is not ignoring Windows Phone.
"If we could have shipped first on [Windows Phones], we would have."
Yes they are ignoring WP7 users. For example why the insistance of apps? WP7 is meant to be about integration. They should have just integrated it in the camera app (look how HTC has done it on Titan). That way they could have used native code and not have to wait till the managed SDK had all the APIs.
Instead they chose to ignore us and go the long winded way. If they really wanted us to have Photosynth they would have made it possible already.
Digger, the Photosynth team are in the process of making their app happen for us.
That isn't the definition of ignoring us.
Going back to the uservoice site, you said
"Interestingly a Japanese user has recently compiled a list of 48 Windows Phone apps that use native code ( site), so presumably Photosynth is also at liberty to do so as well.
This only begs the question of what the holdup is due to, though.
Which is what I have been saying since day 1. Even before Mango they could have had access to native code. Why did they wait till Mango if they now still might need native code? Are they now finally going to use native code or are they going to wait till Apollo when POSSIBLY native code might not be needed.
This is exactly what I mean by ignoring WP7 users. Instead of trying to make a WP7 app using native code, they go ahead and work on a competitors platforms. Photosynth team are massive hypocrites and liars.
It is common wisdom that people see the world as they know themselves to be and that the flaws that irritate you the most in others are the ones that you really need to work on in your own life. Even children have heard, "It takes one to know one.".
The reason that you think that the Photosynth team is composed of hypocrites and liars is because you are a hypocrite and a liar. The reason that you think that I am shifting the goalposts is because, in your soul, you know that that is exactly what you are doing and so you fantasize that I must be like you.
I'm not claiming to be faultless. In fact, it is because I am not faultless, that I try (and sometimes fail) to be patient with and gracious to others.
That said, I won't put up with your inappropriate conduct forever without calling foul.
"Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye."
To your points, though,
I have never said that the Photosynth team didn't have access to native code pre-Mango or after Mango's release.
I never said that they didn't need C++ and neither have they.
Photosynth team members *did* say that they needed APIs only available after Mango's release.
I believe that.
It's true, I do wonder what the holdup is, given that they have access to native code and Mango is released, but I still have confidence that they are working on the Windows Phone app and that there is a reasonable explanation for the delay.
They only said they needed mango because for some reason they wanted to do everything in managed code. They are a Microsoft team for gods sake. Did office, IE, Bing teams use managed code? No. That's why I claimed photosynth team is ignoring us wp7 users and are very hypocritical and their excuses come off as massive lies.
All the APIs they needed were already available in the native SDK. Had the team just bothered they would already have had an app or the functionality integrated in WP by now. Instead they go galavanting with the enemy. The whole team should be sacked.
Look, I love both Photosynth and Windows Phone, but integrating Photosynth into Windows Phone's OS sounds like a horrible idea to me.
Don't misunderstand me. I like it when an installed app does integrate into the hubs, but I would rather have things arranged, such that in the Messaging center, we see messages from all IM + texting apps in a single interface, just like Threads does in Mango, but I want them to flow from full fledged apps, so that I could have a full fledged Windows Live Messenger app that could set my avatar, audio chat, etc. That way, when other IM apps are on the phone, they could hook into that same interface and present their content alongside your other text messages.
Similarly, although I welcome Photosynth putting a flattened version of my panos in my camera roll (and would like an option to access the individual unstitched input images through a dedicated Photosynth album or series of albums - one album per pano) and even like the idea of Photosynth's panorama shooting mode being accessible from the photo/video/other camera mode toggle in the camera app after you've installed the standalone Photosynth app, I reject the idea of the app's functionality being stolen by the operating system, especially if that means not having a dedicated app.
Would it be fantastic to have the ability to browse our friends' Photosynth.net uploads in our Pictures hub and be able to view photosynths and wraparound panoramas directly from the album interface? You bet. Again, though, I think that the Pictures Hub should offer other apps the ability to add rendering support for dimensional imagery, codecs for other image formats like JPEG XR,etc.
If Windows Phone offered this kind of hub extensibility to app developers, it would be far more useful than a stripped down feature set of functionality baked into the OS, because each app could add and update functionality to the hubs without waiting for an OS update to be pushed through your mobile carrier.
I like the idea of organized and coalesced information and functionality, but I believe that we will all be better off when that functionality is derived from standalone apps.
Using native code doesn't mean it HAS to be integrated with the OS. There are already apps out in the marketplace which use some native code. If the Photosynth team really wanted to, they could released a native code app pre-Mango. Instead they are content to wait till Mango and STILL possibly forced to use native code. That's what I call ignoring WP7 users. Apple is laughing at MS all the way to the bank.
Let me ask you something, how long are you prepared to wait until you say the team are taking too long? how long are you prepared to wait until you say releasing the app on ios was a bad idea? Releasing apps for competing platforms is not the way to make your own platform viable. Photosynth team is behaving like a traitor.
I don't think that either of us believes or has argued that in order for the Photosynth team to use unmanaged code in their Windows Phone app (be that C++, C, or even assembly language) that it would have to be integrated into WinPhone's OS. We have both listed examples of apps not written in C# which are not a part of the OS which contradict that line of reasoning.
You just seemed to be of the opinion that Photosynth's capabilities ought to absorbed into the WinPhone OS, instead of remaining a standalone app, when you said, "...why the insistance of apps? WP7 is meant to be about integration? They should have just integrated it in the camera app..." and then last night also said, "Had the team just bothered they would already have had an app or the functionality integrated in WP by now.". My comments relating to Photosynth's functions being stolen by WinPhone's OS and there not being an official Photosynth app were in reaction to those ideas.
So you agree with me then. The Photosynth team have had two options from the very beginning.
1)Use native code and integrate the functionality into the OS.
2)Use native code and release a standalone app.
However the team chose to ignore both options and instead went ahead and worked on and released the iOS app. If that's not ignoring WP7 users, then I am not sure what is. The team looks a bit stupid now if they have to use native code after waiting all this time for Mango when they could have used native code from the beginning.
I also want to mention that just because something is integrated with the os doesn't mean it has to be rolled up with the OS. Samsung for example released an "app" through the marketplace which is not an app in the typical sense but a piece of code which enables GLONASS support and also adds the relevant entry in the settings page. If Samsung can do such a thing, so can MS, but as we've seen the team is in bed with apple.
Your fundamental logical point that your entire argument hinges on is that if Photosynth's team would only use unmanaged code, then they would have unhindered access to everything that they need for a Windows Phone version of their app and that this has been true ever since the first version of Windows Phone 7.0. Put another way, you believe that Photosynth's team is limiting themselves to writing in managed code (presumably C#) and that can be the only reason why they needed to wait for Mango for access to more APIs.
In other words, you believe that there is no API in Windows Phone's 7.0 OS that Photosynth's team needed/needs which is not accessible when using unmanaged code which was added in Windows Phone 7.5.
As I have said before, I am not a coder, but from my point of view and current knowledge, this is a very arbitrary assumption on your part.
If you have evidence to support your claims, please share it so that I can educate myself.
For my part, I do not know that I have ever assumed that Photosynth's mobile app on Windows Phone would be written in managed code. The general sense that I have gotten from listening to developers is that running code inside of a virtual machine is simply not fast enough to accomplish graphics intensive tasks.
If you listen to Blaise's Channel 9 interview with Charles Torre back in 2006 http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/PhotoSynth-What-How-Why/ , you'll hear him say that he doesn't see people who really need performance (like game developers) moving to managed code any time soon.
I've had very much the same discussion with the WordLens folks. http://wprequests.uservoice.com/forums/149122-application-requests/suggestions/2584513-wordlens
A third example is simply the Silverlight version of the Photosynth viewer here on the website which is so much slower than the C++ and Direct3D viewer that they launched with.
So, when David and Blaise said that there were APIs that they needed which wouldn't be available until Mango, I think that it is reasonable to interpret that as quite possibly meaning that those APIs just didn't exist in Windows Phone's OS prior to Mango - to either unmanaged or managed code.
Blaise said that they (which I take it to mean the applied research folks - a mixture of Microsoft Research and the more technical staff within Bing Mobile and Bing Maps) were working closely with Windows Phone's team to get the enabling capabilities into the Windows Phone platform.
Independently on Channel 9, I've heard members of Windows Phone's team being interviewed who have exclaimed over how much work Microsoft Research had been doing to get capabilities added to the OS in Mango, which could very well overlap with what Blaise was talking about.
By the way, you asked me, "How long are you prepared to wait until you say the [Photosynth] team are taking too long?".
In answer to that, I think I've already made it clear above that I'm as frustrated as the next person that it is taking so long.
Where we disagree is the reasons for the current lack of a Photosynth app for Windows Phone.
You believe that it is due to lack of desire, company loyalty, and/or competence on the Photosynth team's part and that they are attempting to deceive people to mask that.
I, on the other hand, believe that there may well be legitimate technical roadblocks that they are working hard to overcome and that they, like us, are irritated by these things.
What you need to understand about me is that my personality is naturally oriented towards balancing and reflecting.
What this means is that if you mix in illegitimate attacks with a frustration that I share, I will never stop defending against the illegitimate attacks, even though we share the same frustration.
You can think of this like trying to stop your teammate from cheating or purposefully maiming players on the opposing team even though you both want your team to win.
Another analogy would be that even if your marriage was struggling and you knew another man whose wife treated him very poorly, you would stop that man from retaliating by beating his wife bloody if they were out in public.
In both cases, although you can sympathize with the struggle that the other person is going through, their poor management of their frustration endangers the hope that your own appeal will be heard and, what is more, disrespects their target as less than human.
Yes they had all the APIs needed for Photosynth if they used native code since the start. This can be seen from OEM augmented reality apps which use the Video stream + overlays + compass etc.
It's disgraceful that they have had a capability for so long but chose to go to the enemy instead. Bunch of traitors they are.
All the examples that you list are nowhere near near as complex as Photosynth's mobile app.
Since you still do not list reasons for me to believe that the APIs needed for Photosynth's mobile app existed pre-Mango, I continue to believe that the professional programmers at Microsoft know what they're talking about and your contradictions of their words are therefore suspect.
The fact that you hide behind an anonymous internet alias and act utterly immaturely do not add to your credibility or to the believability of your slanderous and seemingly ignorant accusations.
How many time do I have to tell you they were talking about MANAGED APIs. Yes, they were right when they said that, but they are also hypocritical since they could have used NATIVE code any time they wanted to. They could have even released an "app" using native code which either is a stand alone app, or integrates into the camera.
Yes, the example I gave was simple, but it shows that Photosynth team had pretty much everything they needed to make Photosymth. The OEM apps had video stream, video overlay and motion sensing. All you need in terms of UI. Stitching etc could have been done with native code.
So I have given you examples why they could easily have released an app by now using native code. You have however, yet to give any convincing reasons they couldn't have released a native code app.
You have yet to give any reason why you think that they were talking about managed APIs and not native APIs.
That's what I'm saying. If you have evidence to the contrary, then please present it.
Because one of their excuses was that they couldn't access the video stream which was no available pre-mango in the managed APIs while it was with the native ones.
Digger, I think that there is a difference between just being able to use the camera and being able to get down (perhaps to the hardware driver level) and modify how the camera is operating.
Rather than paraphrasing when talking about what Photosynth team members said, let's go back to the actual quotes.
Blaise says, "If we could have shipped first on [Windows Phone], we would have. But the level of camera and low-level algorithmic hacking needed to make Photosynth work meant that, if we wanted to get this out as quickly as possible ... we needed to do so on a platform that provided the necessary low-level device access. Windows Phone 7 doesn’t yet allow this for apps. It will soon. It’s worth keeping in mind that the first several generations of iPhone device and OS wouldn’t have allowed us to build this app either."
So, let's break this down.
Blaise says that they needed:
:: a greater level of camera [hacking] and
:: low-level algorithmic hacking
than Windows Phone's OS provides.
To me that reads as deeper access to the camera than any API (managed or native) provided in Windows Phone 7.0.
As to the low-level algorithmic hacking, that certainly sounds like native code to me - possibly even assembly language.
He also makes the very good point that earlier versions of iOS wouldn't have allowed them to create a Photosynth app there either. Photosynth's mobile app runs on the iPhone 3GS, which has been on the market since 2009 06 19.
Since iOS code is in some sense unmanaged, why did Photosynth wait until 2011 04 18 to release their iPhone app? It's the same hardware, right?
The only thing that changed was the OS's capabilities. Certainly other iOS apps had access to the camera before Photosynth made their app, so I do not believe that it is as simple as, "Any camera access is camera access enough to create a Photosynth-style app.", as you seem to believe.
David says, "The answer is simple.
Windows Phone 7.0 didn’t have the video-mode API’s to allow us to provide the capture experience that everyone loves about our app. Neither did Android. Only iOS did at that time and we (correctly I think) judged that a great capture experience was essential to lots of usage.
Mango appears to have the right APIs. We are working with them now."
Again, let's think about what he's telling us.
David says that they needed:
:: video-mode API’s which allow the capture experience that everyone loves about Photosynth's app
Again, it does not appear to be a simple case of, "We either do have access to the camera stream or we don't.", but rather, "We have crude access to the camera, but we need to be able to really get down and change what the camera is giving us.
I'm again reminded of when John Aravosis was slamming Photosynth's mobile app for not exporting high resolution final panoramas - claiming that the app was 'shrinking' the final photo. But if we look at David's response to him, we see that the app is not 'shrinking' the final stitch. Rather, it had modified the resolution that the sensor was sending to the app to begin with.
Also, bear in mind that when in the Photosynth's shooting mode, video is continuously pouring into the app and yet the app's purpose is to also be capturing snapshots. Granted, they are not full resolution snapshots as many people suppose, but when you watch the app's shooting mode in action, the video never stops while a capture is made.
Compare this to how your regular camera app operates - on any platform. Normally, when taking a full resolution still image, you tell the phone to capture and everything locks up or goes black for a moment while the full resolution image is written to memory. The video in the viewfinder is completely obscured for a moment. Clearly, this doesn't "provide the capture experience that everyone loves about [Photosynth's] app".
Similarly, very few apps that I can think of which continuously use video also capture snapshots at the same time. I would expect any app like this on Windows Phone to have released after Mango. If you find any examples that contradict this expectation of mind, I would be interested in taking a look at them.
On a happier note, Twitter user, Felipe Zorzo, (@felipez) recently found evidence that Photosynth's Windows Phone app is being tested internally at Microsoft via metadata of photos posted online by Microsoft employees.
Here are links to the mini conversation:
@felipez: Enquanto isso, numa foto qualquer tirada por um funcionário da Microsoft: "PhotosynthWP_Main_20120214.4". É, Photosynth pra Windows Phone
@victorboaretto: De onde você descobre tantas coisas? É espião ou o que?
@felipez: eu diria que conheço as palavras certas pra usar nos mecanismos de busca :-P
@felipez: vários funcionários da Microsoft criam contas no Twitter pra testar integrações e acabam vazando links
Automatic translation of above Portuguese into English:
@ felipez: Meanwhile, in any photo taken by a Microsoft employee: "PhotosynthWP_Main_ 20120214.4". Is Photosynth pra Windows Phone
@ marcosjahn: where?!
@ victorboaretto: where did you discover so many things? Is spy or what?
@ felipez: I would say that I know the right words to use in search engines:-P
@ felipez: several Microsoft employees create accounts on Twitter to test integrations and end up leaking links
Felipe posted a bit more detail later today in a weblog entry.
I've gathered his tips in this bit.ly bundle: http://bit.ly/synthywinphoneintel
Here's his article (in original Portuguese):
Here's an automated translation from Bing:
WM PowerUser picked up the story here:
I do take issue with the wording of their headline as far as "finally" goes.
It really ought to read something like: "Hallelujah! Microsoft confirmed to still be working on Photosynth for Windows Phone"
I haven't confirmed this yet, but the test accounts that Felipe was tracking are probably the author accounts of the panoramas linked to from these test Twitter accounts https://twitter.com/#!/natelawrence/photosynth-mobile-tests which are also being used to test the iOS app's upcoming Twitter support.
i don't care about "why" and "why not" anymore. Just come out with a kick arse app that'll make it just as awesome as the desktop version. And hopefully in 2012. Thanks for being patient Nathanael. Maybe Digger1985 should build the app himself?
So another month goes by without the Photosynth app and another month goes by where Windows Phone struggles to gain traction. The overwhelming consensus is that Windows Phone lacks exclusive apps to attract new customers. Photosynth could have been such an app, however Photosynth team had no problem stabbing WP team in the back. Remember you both work for MS. Windows Phone going down might have some affect on your team as well in the future.
Digger, no one needs your constant hatred. You are not improving the situation.
Spelling out facts != hatred. At the end of the day it's MS which pays for Photosynth salary and research funds. Bing and Photosynth don't actually make any money for MS. Bing and Photosyth actually are massive money sinks.
The computing world is moving to mobile. If WP doesn't succeed then MS will go down the drain and will be forced to cut spending. Guess which services will be in the firing line? That's right, Bing and Photosynth. By stabbing the WP team in the back, you are also in great risk of losing your own job in the future.
Digger, your "facts" are not factual.
Photosynth is not stabbing Windows Phone in the back.
Legitimate constructive criticism is one thing, but you have a vendetta against Photosynth when you haven't ever even used it.
I HAVE used it... on my friends iPhone.
The Photosynth/Bing team is the biggest bunch of liars and backstabbers I have seen. Why make statements like "Photosynth will be released when Mango is out" when you can't deliver?
You say you released on iOS because it helps Bing, but you do realize that if WP loses out, Android will be the only iOS alternative and since both Anrdoid and iOS default to google search and other services, Bing will be doomed. Think about it. Bing could have helped WP grow and grown alongside as Bing is the premier search app on WP.
I sincerenly hope that MS closes down the Bing/Photosynth team as they do nothing but lose money and make MS look bad.
Digger, your comments are toxic to this community. On any forum with responsible moderators, you would have been permanently banned by now.
Please find somewhere else to spend your time or change your tone.
So you just want to shelter the Photosynth team from the truth? WP users hate how Photosynth is treating WP users and how they backstabbed other MS teams. Good luck taking on Google when Android dominates.
I seriously can't believe photosynth is not yet at the marketplace, damn! no wonder why iPhone is beatin' WP and Android ****s, there is only one average PANO app on the WindowsPhone and iPhone has like 20 avergae plus photosynth.....MS is going down...!!
I'm not anti-truth, Digger, but anyone who claims to be telling the truth yet shows no love for their fellow human beings is failing to be of much real use.
This thread is simply about wanting a Photosynth app for Windows Phone. Your rants against unrelated Microsoft employees etc. are off topic. You've made your discontent quite clear on the topic, so let it go at that.
I'm not against an occasional reminder to the Photosynth team that you're still waiting for their Windows Phone app, but that's really the extent of useful commentary here.
Insulting people's integrity and forecasting your own doom and gloom future of Microsoft have no real purpose here except to throw a childish tantrum.
+1 for Nathanael
Digger1985 are you sure of what you say? Do you really know better from outside how MS should manage its teams and products??
Why not buying an iPhone?
I am sorry but photosynth has been "coming soon" to WP for a year now while iOS app has got multiple updates. You can see where the teams priorities lie and its absolutely not acceptable. Weaking WPs advantage in the market and letting Android take even more share is not the way to compete with Google in the search market as 99 percent of android users will use Google search and other services. Meanwhile 100 percent of WP users use Bing primarily. Bing/Photosynth team could have backed WP and seen growth alongside WP. You don't get anywhere by backing your competitors.
Yes, the team did lie to us when they said photosynth is coming to windows phone soon because a gap of more than one year is definitely not "soon".
Not only did they lie, they backstabbed the wp team as well. You don't say wp is not mature yet or that you ignored wp because you wanted market reach. If MS team can,t be asked to develop for wp for above reasons why should 3rd pty devs. Backstabbers.
It's not only me who's furious at MS. Look at the comments.
This is just one of the reasons this phone is failing, and a big reason why I think I've made a huge mistake by getting one....
In Blaise's recent weblog entry ( http://styleisviolence.com/translator/ ) about the update to the Bing Translator app for Windows Phone ( http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/apps/2cb7cda1-17d8-df11-a844-00237de2db9e ) he said, "I’ve also been asked (a number of times) about Photosynth for Windows Phone... hang in there.".
Yawn, been the same since last year. "Coming soon", "hang in there", "top priority" etc. etc.
I'm just reporting the facts, Dig, - not trying to impress you. =)
As much as I always try to support Microsoft.. I can just say when my free phone upgrade comes from AT&T this summer I will not be getting another WP7 phone. I highly doubt we'll see a Photosynth app before Apollo is released, and I am positive my Gen 1 WP7 phone (Samsung Focus) will probably in all likely hood never receive that update as well and continue to go from barely supported to not supported at all.
Really have been a Microsoft fanboy pretty much all my life, taught myself C# just to build my own Windows Phone and Silverlight apps and I can say I've pretty much have lost that flame entirely.
Jester, thank for you validating what I have been saying all this time. Nathenael and others appear to be in denial in terms of how much this is hurting WP7. In face they seem to believe it was a good thing to release the iOS app first because for some reason it would make users switch from iPhone to WP. The bing/photosynth team has without a doubt have acted selfishly and stabbed the WP team in the back. They might come to regret it as their own funding relies of Microsofts success in the mobile market and since Bing is the team that burns cash, they might be first to go.
Like you Jester, I was also a massive MS fanboy and used to defend MS against FUD from others. But now that MS has been treat a loyal user like me as a third class citizen while helping out users of the enemy, I feel betrayed. So with you MS has lost a bing and a WP customer. Same with me. And there are millions of us out there. Hope you're proud of what you did, Photosynth team.
Friends, I'm no happier that Photosynth's mobile app was out first on iOS or that it's taking so long to come to Windows Phone. Frankly, I think it's taken longer than the Photosynth team initially thought, too.
I've pointed out before that it really wouldn't have taken that much to at least make a Windows Phone app that at least *opens* synths and panos from the website as far back as Windows Phone's 2010 launch (even if it didn't create them) because the current Silverlight viewer(s) could have been ported to a Win Phone app with relatively few changes.
It really is irritating to have this nice little powerful Samsung Focus (that blows away the old 2008 iPhone 3G in terms of power - which I used to use to view my synths) and not be able to view my Photosynth content simply because someone hasn't put in the time to do a simple port of the viewer and maybe add support for GPU-powered rendering to speed things up a little.
On the shooting side, yes, I'd love to be able to use the panorama shooting mode seen in the current iOS version of Photosynth's mobile app, but the terrible resolution that using all the phone's power to do the live image tracking etc. necessitates pretty much makes me say, "Yeah, I'm not really missing out on much there."
For me, though, being able to actually view my photosynths is really important (far more important than being able to view my panoramas) and a Photosynth app which fails to open photosynths is no Photosynth app at all, so that's a glaring problem that needs to be remedied on iOS and definitely added for the Win Phone version. I just can't be excited about a single panorama. Photosynth is fundamentally about linking images of the same environment/subject from different perspectives + recovering the 3D geometry of that space.
Any app which fails to present that is not a Photosynth app.
In any case, all of this fear mongering that Digger seems to be all about is completely unwarranted. "Stabbing Windows Phone in the back"? Please, spare me the hyperbole.
Look, plenty of people have heard of Photosynth once or twice from the 2007 TED Talk, but not that many people actually use it. I say this with some frustration, as anyone who reads over this forum can tell you, that I've done what I can to help people get the most out of their time here and spread the word about Photosynth's strengths. That said, the number of people who visit Photosynth.net regularly is dwarfed by the number of people who visit Facebook or YouTube or Flickr. Don't misunderstand me; this is somewhat of a painful reality for me. My point is that in the grand scheme of things, most people don't realize how cool Photosynth really is and don't use it (and what is more don't even view other people's or comment on others' content).
So... your premise that Photosynth's lack of presence on Windows Phone is some huge piece of the puzzle as to why Windows Phone is having a hard time getting started in the smartphone market is simply erroneous. Photosynth (unfortunately) simply doesn't matter to enough people to cause a big backlash because it isn't (yet) on Windows Phone.
Yeah, I don't think that making the iOS app first was a great move, but I understand why it happened, and it's largely the Windows Phone team's fault.
The bottom line for me is that even though I understand your feelings of betrayal, I'm just the kind of guy that is loyal to his friends, even when they're doing things that I'm not proud of.
We know the end of the story: Windows Phone will get a Photosynth app. The only question is, "When?". Yes, it's irritating to not know the answer. You know what, though? It's not life or death for me and I'm pretty sure that Photosynth matters more to me than most people.
Seriously, Photosynth's history has been plagued by a constant rhythm of "not enough people, not enough money", and the overdue arrival of their Windows Phone app is far from my first frustration.
What about the major missing piece of being able to move between the photos in my synth and the photos in someone else's synth of the same area? That was one of the biggest points that originally drew me to Photosynth, but nearly six years into Photosynth development, it's still forthcoming.
What about the move from fast, strong, DirectX 8 that ran great even on old year 2000 computers to desktop Silverlight which has no support for your GPU and thus is incredibly slow compared to the original viewer?
What about the serious lack of development on the website itself and simple things like the lack of a search box for this forum?
My point is that if I were going to leave Photosynth over a frustration, it would have happened a long time ago.
It might not be a big deal for you but it IS a big deal for most windows phone adopters who have seen MS giving away amazing software to iOS plus multiple updates while leaving us hanging. WP has built the initial userbase, but Photosynth teams action will dissipate this fragile userbase in the next upgrade cycle.
Are you not concerned with Photosynth constantly lying to us? Whatever happened to the app being released "soon after Mango". Soon is 1 or 2 months. Not this. Frankly like Jester above said, I doubt they will even release it for Mango and are now waiting for Apollo instead. Lies upon lies from the team.
And this is where the team is also being hypocritical. They said they released iOS because they wanted market reach and WP was not ready yet, but they have completely ignored Android. If they wanted market reach iOS + Android would have covered 90% of the market so I don't get their explanation of just releasing it for iOS.
>I'm just the kind of guy that is loyal to his friends, even when they're doing things that I'm not proud of.
If your friend was sleeping with your wife, would you be loyal to them?
Photosynth has never once lied to us, Digger. Try to wrap your head around that.
I'm aware that they initially hoped to get on Windows Phone soon after Mango released. Did you also realize that several core programmers on their team left Micrsoft last year to go work with former Live Labs founder, Gary Flake, on his recent startup?
Also, in answer to your last question, I would be loyal to my friendships, not the betrayal of them. The hope would always be that a friend would abandon their treachery and return to fellowship with me. The hop would not be for that friendship to die while still in betrayal.
I'll believe it when I see it in the App Store and not a moment sooner.
Hank is right. We've had leaks before in February. It's been 3 months now and no sign of the app. Even the Windows team moves from beta -> RC -> final builds quicker than the Photosynth team. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes another few months. What a bunch of liars the photosynth team is. "Soon after mango" my ass.
Can you please stop Spamming with your comments? You behave like a spoiled kid who doesn’t get his little toy.
Furthermore I guess you have no idea what you’re talking about. Did you ever try the Photosynth on iOS? I guess not because if you would you would know Photosynth is not an app you can’t live without. There are other more important applications. I also have an iPhone because I develop an app for iPhone and I tested Photosynth for iOS and it is nothing I could not live without. It’s a fun application but the current phone cameras can’t give you the photo quality that I would be impressed.
So take your time and stop whining all of the time, go out into the nature, take a deep breath and relax.
The fact is, you can live without most apps. However that doesn't mean MS should be giving away apps on other platforms and ignore their own thinking oh this doesn't matter to us. That's exactly what I mean when I say MS is treating us like third class citizens.
And yes, I have used photosynth multiple times. And no, if it wasn't important, Ms wouldn't have released it for iOS in the first place and hundrens of thousands of people wouldn't have downloaded it.
So irks me is especially how the photosynth team has been lying to us all this time. They say they wanted market reach and yet still haven't released an app on Android which is stupid especially becuase you have really powerful quadcore phones. That's a lie and hypocrisy. Another lie is when they said the app would be out soon after mango. It's been "soon" for more than 6 months now. iOS app has seen multiple updates.
So somehow HTC and now Nokia can release panaroma applications (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RupEbiefeYk) in couple of months while the worlds largest software developer can't release their app for their own platform for over a year while it continues to release updates for users of other platforms.
I have been saying this all along. If OEMS can do it, so can the MS team. All these excuses about lack of APIs smacks of lies. And as I also have said in my previous posts, this app also integrates itself into the camera app. So had photosynth just used native code like I have been telling them to do, they could have integrated the functionality into the camera app itself.
Well done team, getting outdone by the OEM software makers.
it's here! go get it! was beginning to think the day would never come...
Here's the link for the app:
Here's the announcement on the blog:
Here's the announcement on the forums:
Here's the happy tweet: